Scenario/Role play

[stabpunch]

Then you have learned nothing from the responses you have received, and will continue to put yourself in danger, and risk escalation of the situation by your untrained intrusion into delicate situations.

Did you read the post? Last night i was investigated with the goal of reporting. The incident subsided, they actually reconcilled their differences without intervention.

If you do not take the advice of the several LEOs who have responded in this thread, as it appears you will not be doing, then you have no one but yourself to blame when your choices go awry, as they are quite likely to do. Simply because you would "like someone to help me and not take the 'stay out of it' mentality" does not make it the right choice for other persons in other situations. If you teach others this mistaken mindset, then you make yourself responsible for their injuries - which are quite likely to occur. You, and most especially they, have my condolences for the injuries that are quite likely to occur in the future.

Again did you even read my post you're firing these shots at a ghost. The inclusion of a reporting proceedure and giving people information to make them feel confident in reporting incidents. How is that irresponsible?

 

[Kacey]

Did you read the post?

I read your post, and despite the positive outcome you gained from not intervening directly, you continue to state that intervening directly is your preferred response; therefore, I find no reason to believe that you have learned anything from the advice proffered on this thread or your own experience - your own statements prove otherwise.

 

[bluemtn]

Did you read the post? Last night i was investigated with the goal of reporting. The incident subsided, they actually reconcilled their differences without intervention.




Again did you even read my post you're firing these shots at a ghost. The inclusion of a reporting proceedure and giving people information to make them feel confident in reporting incidents. How is that irresponsible?

It's irresponsible in the sense that you have purposefully placed yourself in danger. Yes, we are aware that the situations had in fact calmed down, but that is not the point everyone has been trying to make. Point: What if the situations escalated? You found yourself looking at any weapon- be it knife, gun, or whatever! You successfully defend yourself, seriously injure someone, and therefore you get sued. It happens- rarely, but it happens... What is most likely to happen? You're caught off guard, and get injured or killed. Then you have trespassing laws to deal with, also...

Ask yourself- Is it really worth physically placing yourself in danger, when you can just as easily call for help from your own residence?

 

[stabpunch]

Your hypothetical scenario started with an erroneous and unwise action. You got advice that wasn't. Sorry it didn't match your ideal... Oh... and if you decide to go into "the security industry" -- I strongly urge you to understand your role and authority. I just finished a prosecution of a guard who didn't understand he wasn't a cop...

Sure i am putting people out of their safe ideal socially responsible postition. Ok not saying you're a drinker. What if you'd been drinking and your 'normal' response isn't present, are you infallible? People get into irrational situations otherwise you'd call earth utopia, there isn't much work for leo's and lawyer in utopia.

What does this have to do with the scenario you presented? The simple truth is that gun laws only affect the law abiding, whatever the US Constitution may say. Or I wouldn't find so many illegal aliens and convicted felons with guns...

unclear of your intention here

Gee... You mean there might actually be a reason to let the people with all the tools and training handle problems? Who'dve thunk it?:idunno:

Please don't belittle me. My opinions and views are as valuable as yours. Whether you think i have tools and training to deal with situations is irrevelvant

There are lots of folks in every nation who don't get along with the police, and there are plenty of times that the fault lies on both sides of the equation. All the same -- there's a reason for calling the cops in many situations rather than trying to handle it yourself. You're worried about repercussions if the cops come; isn't it kind of possible that there'd be repercussions for sticking your nose into their business?

Again did you read my post?

Again -- you started from a faulty premise, choosing a course of action. Maybe it would have come across differently if you'd said something to the effect that your neighbors are fighting, and you stupidly get involved; what do you do now. But that's not the route you chose. And then you began to argue with people who do know better, instead of acknowledging the faulty premise. Maybe that could have been handled better, huh? :idea: Think all but openly challenging the manhood of anyone who wouldn't butt into the situation just maybe could cause a problem?

I have apologised for my post that incinuated the poser martial artist. Perhaps your failuer to read or understand my post has lead to you bringing this up. Or are you trying to rub my nose in it? Do they actually know better, how can you say this without being present as the situation progressed?

Martial arts is a many-fold path. Only some of them involve directly confronting other people's problems. And, of those that do, one of the primary rules is generally to know when to intervene. Perhaps your familiar with Sun Tsu? "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."

Again you question my assessment of the situation. It's as though you are unwilling to let go of your side of the discussion and it is clouding your perception. "do not allow your view to taint the vision of positive outcome' as quoted from stabpunch 18.12.06.

Bud -- that's the image you painted of yourself, in this thread and in others. Your stubborn argument (which you seem to be maintaining) that you didn't care about calling the police, and that apparently anyone who wouldn't handle something like this on their own created that impression. And, quite frankly, I'm still not convinced that there's not some truth to it.

Please don't call me bud it is belittling me further. The impression i am creating is defined by the interpretation of others, wheteher right or wrong you need to separate from your argument stand point to understand what is being written and it's intent and not cloud it with your own stand point.

You wanted to establish "factors", but you didn't explain or discuss them. You wanted to pose a realistic situation -- but you didn't feel like accepting realistic advice. Then you went hunting for "support" that was out of context in other threads. You got lucky when you stuck your nose into something; it could very, very easily have ended very, very differently. And, in case you're wondering, I'm acquainted with cops from around the world. Domestics are one of the most similar events you'll find...

I wasn't looking for advice. Why does everyone expect that i need their advice. I was looking for ideas as i have mentioned tirelessly in this thread. How many times do i have to write that calling the police is reasonable and wise. My next thread will be much less controversial i am sure.

You talk about martial mindsets; perhaps you'd care to explain what you mean by that? Are you at all familiar with Forest Morgan's book Living the Martial Way? Might I suggest adding that to your reading list, along with some of David Grossman's books and research? (http://killology.com) You want to talk about communication strategies; which ones? Do you know what Verbal Judo is? Or whether it can work?

You might find that you're not as knowledgable or prepared as you think you are.

Again you post that because i have an opinion that differs from the general consensus that i am uninformed. I refuse to provide my credentials for you to further assassinate my character. You might say my unwillingness comes from a lack of credential. This wouldn't be altogether untrue. Yet why would i provide you with further information about my self as to make me out as a lesser?

 

[stabpunch]

I read your post, and despite the positive outcome you gained from not intervening directly, you continue to state that intervening directly is your preferred response; therefore, I find no reason to believe that you have learned anything from the advice proffered on this thread or your own experience - your own statements prove otherwise.

You are not understanding my direction. Investigation of the situation yes. If i complained about every domestic situation at my appartment block we'd soon get a police station in the court yard. My intention is to report incidences unless they directly involve me, in which case should i have the opportunity to report i will. Can i make my postition any more clear to you?

 

[exile]

Stabpunch—look, this whole thing is very simple. You are making it much more complicated than it is. The main idea is, when you see something going on which looks like trouble, and you have no idea of what works in that situation, and there are people around who do know what to do in that situation, you call on those people, and they come and help. By doing that, you are doing the most helpful thing you can possibly do. The impulse to go in yourself is self-indulgent in the extreme: you are trying to be heroic, but since you don't understand what such situations involve, you are very likely to bugger things up royally for everyone concerned. If you want to be a good guy, someone who deserves respect, then do the best thing that can be done: call in professional law enforcement officers who have dozens or more such cases under their belts, who are trained by other LEOs with maybe hundreds of such cases, i.e., people who know what they're doing. Get your mind around the basic idea that you don't know what you're doing in such a situation, that you don't have the `clinical experience', as it would be called in the medical profession, and therefore the best thing to do, if you really want best for the people involved in the situation, is to alert those who do know what they're doing, and let them handle it. Doesn't that make more sense than rushing into something you have no competence to deal with, and very likely getting yourself killed, or sued, or screamed at... or all of the above???

 

[Kacey]

When i started this thread i had no idea it would go this far. I am still of the stance that if you are in a position to help then you should do so. last night i was a witness to another domestic situation.

I can't find the post in this thread, i recall someone mentioning that they were standing there with the guy yelling at them still on the fone to the police. This to me was the most helpful post in this thread. As you know i will get close to the fire in order to establish the extent of the situation at hand, i feel it is important that prior to involving the police you need to understand what is happening. Again it is just me here. So to get close enough to the situation to asses it i made out as if i was going for my mail, phone in hand the intention of report rather than becoming involved. Again it was a non-event that subsided by itself.

So the tool for my mindset which i have gained from this thread is to take that confidence and use it to get close to the fire, go towards it as it were, inorder to report rather than respond. Yes Drac has a point i do run the rent a cop mentality. It's not that extreme unfortunatly my personality dictates that if i have the ability to help that i must use my ability to do so.

I will continue to aproach the fire as close as my personal confidence will allow. However i now have a greater understanding to a general report rather than respond pattern.

When i started this thread i wasn't looking for advice perse. I was looking for input and ideas, maybe different to the ones i already know. In trying to direct the thread away from the immediate call the police response which is reasonable and sensible advice, i have offended participants of the thread for which i apologise.

This has been more valuable an experience to me than i could have gained from my original attempt of insight. Now i have a concept to include into our sylabus. Amongst the drilling and sparring and scenario situations i will be looking to include with my instructors help a component that deals with reporting to the police. Hopefully this will benefit my fellow students.

I am not however retreating from my position. If i was in a situation i would like someone to help me and not take the 'stay out of it' mentality.

The choice to report or respond is the individuals and is determined by their skill set and the conflict they are faced with.

You are not understanding my direction. Investigation of the situation yes. If i complained about every domestic situation at my appartment block we'd soon get a police station in the court yard. My intention is to report incidences unless they directly involve me, in which case should i have the opportunity to report i will. Can i make my postition any more clear to you?

Can you make it clearer? Not if you don't stop "yelling". Are you directly contradicting yourself? Most definitely. Please excuse me if the contradictions inherent in these two posts leave me confused; I find contradictory statements difficult to reconcile, especially the portions marked in color, to differentiate them from the bold you used for the latter post.

If you are including calling the police "amongst" the potential response scenarios, and not as the primary response, then you are doing your students a disservice and placing them in danger. What you do for yourself is your own problem - what you do for your students makes them responsible for their future choices, if such choices are based on your instruction. If they are unclear as to the distinction between potential response scenarios and appropriate response scenarios, then you have made yourself responsible for any injuries, lawsuits, or other negative outcomes that may ensue from your instruction.

You are, by your own contradictory statements, apparently unwilling to accept negative responses. If you are only willing to accept responses that agree with you, then you are in for a rude awakening; reversing your stated position and contradicting yourself in the process will not endear you to other posters on this, and many other, sites.

 

[Kacey]

Stabpunch—look, this whole thing is very simple. You are making it much more complicated than it is. The main idea is, when you see something going on which looks like trouble, and you have no idea of what works in that situation, and there are people around who do know what to do in that situation, you call on those people, and they come and help. By doing that, you are doing the most helpful thing you can possibly do. The impulse to go in yourself is self-indulgent in the extreme: you are trying to be heroic, but since you don't understand what such situations involve, you are very likely to bugger things up royally for everyone concerned. If you want to be a good guy, someone who deserves respect, then do the best thing that can be done: call in professional law enforcement officers who have dozens or more such cases under their belts, who are trained by other LEOs with maybe hundreds of such cases, i.e., people who know what they're doing. Get your mind around the basic idea that you don't know what you're doing in such a situation, that you don't have the `clinical experience', as it would be called in the medical profession, and therefore the best thing to do, if you really want best for the people involved in the situation, is to alert those who do know what they're doing, and let them handle it. Doesn't that make more sense than rushing into something you have no competence to deal with, and very likely getting yourself killed, or sued, or screamed at... or all of the above???

Exile, that is very nicely stated, and I would happily provide you with postive rep... but I haven't spread it around enough yet, so I will content myself with responding here. Thanks very much!

 

[stabpunch]

It's irresponsible in the sense that you have purposefully placed yourself in danger. Yes, we are aware that the situations had in fact calmed down, but that is not the point everyone has been trying to make. Point: What if the situations escalated? You found yourself looking at any weapon- be it knife, gun, or whatever! You successfully defend yourself, seriously injure someone, and therefore you get sued. It happens- rarely, but it happens... What is most likely to happen? You're caught off guard, and get injured or killed. Then you have trespassing laws to deal with, also...

Ask yourself- Is it really worth physically placing yourself in danger, when you can just as easily call for help from your own residence?

You pose a very well presented argument. I guess it all comes down to my ability to assess risk and act accordingly. You're right there are many what if's in these scenarios. The only defence i have for my position is that to date my involvement has been of positive outcome. On the otherside of the coin i am aware that i may not always be so lucky, with all of the unknown factors involved.

Thank you tkdgirl

 

[exile]

Exile, that is very nicely stated, and I would happily provide you with postive rep... but I haven't spread it around enough yet, so I will content myself with responding here. Thanks very much!

Kacey, thank you—I appreciate your comments; like you (and Mike and Blotan and jks and Drac and... and...), I'm just trying to get some basic common sense agreed on as the ground for future discussion, if any more is called for... but I fear that despite our best efforts we're not getting very far, you know?

 

[stabpunch]

Stabpunch—look, this whole thing is very simple. You are making it much more complicated than it is. The main idea is, when you see something going on which looks like trouble, and you have no idea of what works in that situation, and there are people around who do know what to do in that situation, you call on those people, and they come and help.

I see what you're saying i am not happy about the tone incinuating i have no idea.

By doing that, you are doing the most helpful thing you can possibly do. The impulse to go in yourself is self-indulgent in the extreme: you are trying to be heroic, but since you don't understand what such situations involve, you are very likely to bugger things up royally for everyone concerned. If you want to be a good guy, someone who deserves respect, then do the best thing that can be done: call in professional law enforcement officers who have dozens or more such cases under their belts, who are trained by other LEOs with maybe hundreds of such cases, i.e., people who know what they're doing. Get your mind around the basic idea that you don't know what you're doing in such a situation, that you don't have the `clinical experience', as it would be called in the medical profession, and therefore the best thing to do, if you really want best for the people involved in the situation, is to alert those who do know what they're doing, and let them handle it. Doesn't that make more sense than rushing into something you have no competence to deal with, and very likely getting yourself killed, or sued, or screamed at... or all of the above???

You are still presenting that i am going in with the big MA lycra suit on. It isn't infact the case and if you feel it is then i can do no more to convince you other wise.

 

[stabpunch]

Can you make it clearer? Not if you don't stop "yelling". Are you directly contradicting yourself? Most definitely. Please excuse me if the contradictions inherent in these two posts leave me confused; I find contradictory statements difficult to reconcile, especially the portions marked in color, to differentiate them from the bold you used for the latter post.

If you are including calling the police "amongst" the potential response scenarios, and not as the primary response, then you are doing your students a disservice and placing them in danger. What you do for yourself is your own problem - what you do for your students makes them responsible for their future choices, if such choices are based on your instruction. If they are unclear as to the distinction between potential response scenarios and appropriate response scenarios, then you have made yourself responsible for any injuries, lawsuits, or other negative outcomes that may ensue from your instruction.

You are, by your own contradictory statements, apparently unwilling to accept negative responses. If you are only willing to accept responses that agree with you, then you are in for a rude awakening; reversing your stated position and contradicting yourself in the process will not endear you to other posters on this, and many other, sites.

Ok sure i see that you have read the two statements and pulled the incongruencies. What the people here are failing to recognise is the basis for my position. As we have the domestic situation point and case yet i am thinking on a more general level, i seem to be swaying. Like bamboo in a westerly mind you. I am rooted yet my leaves are free to move.

When i say that i intend to include it amongst our training. The way we deliver self preservation information is unique to Hakarac. I'm sure that students have a god complex not just me and not just our style.

If you look at it now from the instructor telling a student who asks for a recommendation on dealing with response to a domestic situation next door. 'call the police'

So yeah i get it you feel it is unreasonable for an instructor to tell his students what measures to take in the event they get in a situation when their training should indicate that they not be there.

I feel that you are presumptuos that my question is answered as you are my superior and not my equals. As many of you here are instructors i feel it is irresponsible to train from the perspective that you are going to have the ideal situation at hand. Do you ever think that you may be in a position not to call the police what happens then? It's all the what if's again but if you don't disscuss outside of the 'acceptable' responses you are ill prepared for the time when the preverbial hits the fan. 'Luck is the combination of chance and preparedness' as quoted from some book somewhere.

 

[bluemtn]

Ok then... What you have just stated is different than what you had originally posted- or at least the 2 seem to be different situations. The first is just going next door to try and stop what is going on, while the more recent is if you're caught in the middle... Therefore, if that is the case, I'll answer to my best ability- seeing how I've never been in that situation.
I'll still do my best to get out of there, hope to get the other person out (and do so without putting myself in more danger), then call the police- especially if I didn't help the other. I always carry a cellphone and hairspray, keys, etc. Then again, as I said, I've never been in that situation, and those items are always on me. It's a bit like when I learned first aid- help when you know there isn't risk of you getting injured or worse...

 

[exile]

So yeah i get it you feel it is unreasonable for an instructor to tell his students what measures to take in the event they get in a situation when their training should indicate that they not be there.

Kacey, in case you feel compelled to revisit this thread... see what I meant about us not getting anywhere?

Stabpunch: the above-quoted passage is one huge red herring. You are not going to find yourself actually intervening in a domestic by accident. You may stumble upon a situation in which there is domestic strife, possibly violent, brewing, and in that case, you already should know the answer: make as quick an exit as possible and contact the police if, in your judgment, violence has broken out or is just about to. If that's what you advise your students to do, then no, you're not being unreasonable; on the contrary, you are giving them the best advice possible. But that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about finding yourself in that situation (a situation where you don't want to be) and then actively intervening in it. You are suggesting that we feel it is unreasonable for you to try to tell your students, or yourself, or anyone, what kind of intervention to undertake in that situation. And you're right. There is no intelligent intervention you or your students can undertake because—you're right, this is indeed getting boring—you don't know what to do in such situations. You're no more equipped by your MA training to handle such situations— which typically involve complex family dynamics, possible/probably alcohol abuse, possible/probable drug abuse, histories of psychological/physical/sexual abuse, and so on and on—than you are to take over the scalpal from an experience cardiologist at a critical phase in open-heart surgery. You don't know enough. Why are you having such a problem with this simple, elementary fact? If it makes you feel better, I don't know enough, and probably most of the MT membership doesn't know enough. Drac, jks and a few others do know enough because they're experienced cops who've put their lives on the line in such situations enough times, and who've received enough specialized training from experts, that they themselves have become experts in what is often a situation with no good solutions. But you—and me, and most of the other participants in this thread—do not know enough. The difference is, me and the other participants in this thread are happy to admit that we don't know enough and that speedy withdrawal and reporting of the situation is the only viable course open to us for the good of all concerned. You, apparently, are still not willing to accept this flaming, gaping fact.

I feel that you are presumptuos that my question is answered as you are my superior and not my equals.

I'm not sure you realize this, but what you're doing here is another red herring. Rather than address the content, you are trying to focus the discussion on our supposed bad behavior in lording it over you because of our `superior' status [????]—I've no idea where you get this, but think of it this way, Stabpunch—if someone maintained on an MT thread that the best way to rid themself of a headache was to pick up a frying pan and bash themself with it a few times really hard, and that person got a lot of static from people telling saying, whoa, that's a really bad idea, where did you get such a wrongheaded notion from, all you'll do is hurt or maybe kill yourself, and if the person in question then responded with, `You're just putting me down because you think you're superior to me', wouldn't you lose patience with that person and want to shriek at them, `No, we're just telling what you're suggesting is totally wrong and self-destructive and could get you killed and won't help your head at all, why don't you just pay attention to the issue and not go off on this wounded-vanity tangent??!!' Well, that's what we're telling you.

As many of you here are instructors i feel it is irresponsible to train from the perspective that you are going to have the ideal situation at hand. Do you ever think that you may be in a position not to call the police what happens then? It's all the what if's again but if you don't disscuss outside of the 'acceptable' responses you are ill prepared for the time when the preverbial hits the fan. 'Luck is the combination of chance and preparedness' as quoted from some book somewhere.

Another red herring, and a real doozy. Your younger child comes up to you and says, `Daddy, who do love more, Robin or me?'. `I love you the same', you say. `But if you only could save one of us from a kidnapper, which of us would you save?' `I'd save both of you or die trying' you reply. `But what if the kidnapper said that if you tried to save us and died, then he'd kill both of us?...

That's what you're doing. Building up absurdly improbable scenarios as a way of avoiding the fundamental fact that in virtually every real-life case you or your students or anyone else is going to encounter, a fast exit and a call to the police is going to be possible, practical and a hell of a lot safer than anything you're contemplating... we keep pointing this out to you and you keep coming back with, `But what if....?' Stabpunch, `what if' isn't going to happen, at least along the lines you keep bringing up. You get out of the situation. You call the cops. That's all that needs to be said!!!

 

[Tez3]

Well this thread certainly put a few more pages on since I last visited (yesterday!). I also seems to have turned into a circular argument where stabpunch seems to feel hard done by the rest of the posters. One of the reasons I joined the forum was to learn from other martial artists and share experiences (especially from women as there are few in my style) I've never felt anyone came over as 'superior' quite the opposite in fact.
A scenario was presented and discussed, I felt all the advice was constructive and useful. Although I am a police officer, my force is different from the 'civilian' ones as our main remit is national and military security. We rarely have domestics to deal with though a few have occurred in the military married quarters over the years which have more often than not been dealt with by the local 'Home Office' guys as they have the experience to deal with them. ( See even the police will call in the police if it's felt that's the right thing lol)
I feel stabpunch has taken a defensive position after realising that the advice given was not the green light to teach his students his way that he thought it would be. He has also taken umbrage where none need be taken.Trust me, on other forums he's have been ripped to pieces not gently given good advice. My instructor and a lot of his mates call people 'bud' no one has ever thought it was demeaning!
Exile and others have said what I'd have said... only better!

 

[MJS]

When i started this thread i had no idea it would go this far. I am still of the stance that if you are in a position to help then you should do so. last night i was a witness to another domestic situation.

I asked a question a while back, but don't believe that I got an answer. My question was: Are you willing to accept the outcome of the situation, if you take it upon yourself to attempt to handle a domestic yourself? By going over there, armed or unarmed, there is a chance that you could find yourself faced with much more than what you ever dreamed of!

Mike

 

[MJS]

I am not however retreating from my position. If i was in a situation i would like someone to help me and not take the 'stay out of it' mentality.

The difference between you and I and I think many others here, is that my version is not going to involve me physically getting involved. I stated, as did many others, that I would call the police. Assessing the situation, before running in is important. Why do you think that LEOs want as much info from the dispatcher as possible? Are there any weapons? How many people are involved? Are there any restraining/protective orders in place? Are there any active warrants on any of the people involved? If there are weapons, where are they and are they secured?

A few years ago, 2 police officers responded to a domestic. Unfortunately, the info about guns was not relayed to them. The accused party was hiding in the basement. When one of the officers went into the basement, he was ambushed by the guy, shot with a highpowered weapon, and eventually died! BTW, did I mention that this happened right around Christmas time? Did I mention that this guy left a wife and kids?

The point of saying all this is...here you have an LEO, someone who is trained and this is what happened. And you're saying that you want to run in and save the day? Come on man.

The choice to report or respond is the individuals and is determined by their skill set and the conflict they are faced with.

And common sense needs to come into play here! I could give a rats behind how much MA skill the civilian has, the fact is, he/she does not have the qualifications to respond to something like that! If a cop got shot and died, what the heck makes you think that you're going to be able to handle the situation any different?

 

[Blotan Hunka]

If you think that domestic situation was "resolved" without police/court intervention than you are more nieve than I first thought. I only hope those people dont wind up in more serious trouble because nobody ever alerted the authorities.

This thread has been a great example of "martial arts fantasy". Martial Arts training gives you NO experience in how to deal with people like a cop does. No idea of how to handle a domestic, a bank robbery, hostage situation etc. Believing that you can "handle things" just because you are a martial artist is something this site (as far as i have read) stands against.

 

[Tez3]

Thinking about it what does "skill set" actually mean? Is it a sort of martial arts pyschobabble? I worked extremely hard on getting my black belt and it did include training on how not to be a complete prat. My instructor is also a close protection officer and he doesn't teach 'lets dive in without any thought thinking we are superheroeskwando." He's very adamant about us getting into situations we shouldn't be in.

 

[exile]

I worked extremely hard on getting my black belt and it did include training on how not to be a complete prat.

Wonderfully put, Tez!