Recent Video by Alan Orr

[guy b.]

pay attention

Sincere apologies

 

[drop bear]

I don't understand your animosity to Jai. I don't know him, but the clips I've seen sparring/fighting at his kwoon look ok. Just because someone hasn't taken part in an mma event doesn't mean they can't fight. I love mma and it's certainly the closest approximation to real fighting (with rules) that you can get but please don't start with the "if you ain't been in the cage you can't fight" stuff. It's been done to death.

His claim to fame is that he has been in the cage. And tested his chun.

He is the guy that fought everyone and made chun practical.

If i went round and mma,d a bunch of white belts from other styles to say i have tested it. You should rightly come back and say fight someone good.

 

[guy b.]

His claim to fame is that he has been in the cage. And tested his chun.

He is the guy that fought everyone and made chun practical.

If i went round and mma,d a bunch of white belts from other styles to say i have tested it. You should rightly come back and say fight someone good.

I think you are overstating this. Sure he has posted some clips with titles that are a bit hyperbolic. All of his clips are vs low level opposition. I don't think the target audience is MMA fans becaus these people will immediately be able to tell what they are watching and will not be interested.

I think it is promotional material for the wing chun audience. JH is obviously interested in building an image, presumably because he wants to make a living from teaching VT at some point. If you compare it to other material aimed at that audience then it is fine- real opponents, real contact, some risk of defeat. He isn't stating a disclaimer on the clips to the effect that all of the people involved are low level, but neither is he pretending to be a champion full contact fighter. Anyone that believes he is has problems perceiving reality. It is what it is.

 

[drop bear]

I think you are overstating this. Sure he has posted some clips with titles that are a bit hyperbolic. All of his clips are vs low level opposition. I don't think the target audience is MMA fans becaus these people will immediately be able to tell what they are watching and will not be interested.

I think it is promotional material for the wing chun audience. JH is obviously interested in building an image, presumably because he wants to make a living from teaching VT at some point. If you compare it to other material aimed at that audience then it is fine- real opponents, real contact, some risk of defeat. He isn't stating a disclaimer on the clips to the effect that all of the people involved are low level, but neither is he pretending to be a champion full contact fighter. Anyone that believes he is has problems perceiving reality. It is what it is.

The wing chun audience eat this up. With no understanding of the level he actually is. For me that is false branding. Fighters do this all the time as well. They bash chumps to create a better profile for themselves.

And I am not a fan of that either.

 

[guy b.]

The wing chun audience eat this up. With no understanding of the level he actually is. For me that is false branding. Fighters do this all the time as well. They bash chumps to create a better profile for themselves.

And I am not a fan of that either.

I am more of the opinion that as long as the truth is available, it is the fault of the individual if they don't bother to find it. Jai Harman isn't hiding anything. A few moments on google will provide enough facts. If people choose to deceive themselves, well then that is their problem.

 

[dudewingchun]

That guy most definitely is not a good example of " MMA". He didn't even know how to throw a jab.

 

[KPM]

Here is a more recent video of Jai Harmon sparring:

Here is a picture of WSLVT Chi Sau/Lop Sau training:

So since a similar question has been asked about videos of Alan Orr training and videos of Alan Orr's guys sparring, I think it is only fair to apply a similar question here......why don't we see any of the things from WSLVT Chi Sau showing up in a WSLVT guy sparring/fighting?

 

[LFJ]

So since a similar question has been asked about videos of Alan Orr training and videos of Alan Orr's guys sparring, I think it is only fair to apply a similar question here......why don't we see any of the things from WSLVT Chi Sau showing up in a WSLVT guy sparring/fighting?

Already answered you 7 pages ago. Quit trolling.

Recent Video by Alan Orr

 

[guy b.]

why don't we see any of the things from WSLVT Chi Sau showing up in a WSLVT guy sparring

Because WSL VT chi sau is a drill and not directly related to fighting application. Apparently this is not the case for other wing chun systems. This is why questions are asked about what the Force Flow TM chi sau is training, or why you would wish to form arm contacts in fighting, for example.

In the case of Force Flow TM, if it is training to bounce people around and supposed to work from an arm contact situation then it is fair to ask why we do not see this in fighting. If you don't like such questions then don't claim that your chi sau is directly related to fighting application, that you train arm contact applications, that you fight from a training stance, and so on.

 

[guy b.]

Already answered you 7 pages ago. Quit trolling.

Recent Video by Alan Orr

You are correct, this is trolling. I wonder if KPM will revert to pictures of WSL doing a tan shape soon?

 

[LFJ]

Plus, Jai calls himself a "Wing Chun/Freestyle MA guy" in the description.

KPM should be able to recognize that he was not using VT at all in those clips. He was doing whatever his "Freestyle MA" is. Pretty sure most beginners would be able to tell that much.

Poor attempt at trolling.

 

[SaulGoodman]

KPM, you're wasting you're time arguing with the VT tm fanboys. You're just giving them a platform to spout their boring rhetoric from. They have their interpretation of Wing Chun and we have ours, and ne'r the twain shall meet I'm afraid. They have an arrogance that will always put people's backs up, and based on the VT tm people I've met and seen, it's unfounded. I've met these kind of guys before, even after touching hands and giving them a good spanking they will tell you that the only reason you bested them was because you weren't using "VING TSUN" and had to go outside of the system.
Or the classic line from VT tm "master" Kevin Gledhill after Shawn Obasi ragged him all over the place, "that's not OUR chi Sao". What happened to being able to adapt the VT tm non-application based training to someone not playing their game?

 

[LFJ]

They have their interpretation of Wing Chun and we have ours

You share interpretations with KPM? Because you are KPM?

You talk about the other forum history, but no one knows you and you're using the name of a character from Breaking Bad.

Trolling is an unacceptable behavior on this forum, KPM aka "SaulGoodman".

 

[geezer]

You share interpretations with KPM? Because you are KPM?

Are you beginning to see KPM everywhere now?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/s1_LZ6d_D7w/maxresdefault.jpg

Take a deep breath and remember paranoia will destroy ya.

 

[drop bear]

Here is a more recent video of Jai Harmon sparring:

Here is a picture of WSLVT Chi Sau/Lop Sau training:

So since a similar question has been asked about videos of Alan Orr training and videos of Alan Orr's guys sparring, I think it is only fair to apply a similar question here......why don't we see any of the things from WSLVT Chi Sau showing up in a WSLVT guy sparring/fighting?

Because boxers wing chun better.

OThere are just more of them applying the principles at a higher level.

And there are principles of fighting that can be pretty consistant.

(exept for when they are not)

By the way look at amateur boxing it is a bit more chun like.

 

[KPM]

You share interpretations with KPM? Because you are KPM?

You talk about the other forum history, but no one knows you and you're using the name of a character from Breaking Bad.

Trolling is an unacceptable behavior on this forum, KPM aka "SaulGoodman".

Sorry. You are totally off-base. Saul is his own man. His reference about "our" interpretations refers only to the fact that you have singled WSLVT out as being so different than all other Wing Chun. At least that's how I took his meaning. And maybe he was using a different "log on" name in the other forum....I don't know.

 

[guy b.]

Are you beginning to see KPM everywhere now?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/s1_LZ6d_D7w/maxresdefault.jpg

Take a deep breath and remember paranoia will destroy ya.

Needs investigated by the moderators. IP check would be a good start.

 

[KPM]

Already answered you 7 pages ago. Quit trolling.

Recent Video by Alan Orr

Not trolling at all. If such heavy criticism is going to be applied to Alan Orr's work, I thought "turn about" was only "fair play"!!
Here is the answer you gave earlier in this thread:

This force flow thing is said to be used directly in fighting. The end goal is to be able to manipulate the opponent's body and balance while striking them. But it never happens.

Training drills in WSLVT are abstract, not meant to be used directly in fighting. We train pun-sau to develop the punch. Pun-sau doesn't happen in fighting, but punching obviously does. There's no disconnect between what we say we use in fighting, and what is actually used.

I understand perfectly that Chi Sau is not fighting and you don't expect to see Chi Sau in free-sparring. But you did say that things trained in Chi Sau were for use in sparring and fighting. Let's see...what all did you mention....elbow position, proper cycling, structure, removing obstacles.....what else? Where do we see these things in the Jai Harmon videos? Because if it is ONLY about training to punch....you guys sure go about it in a strange and inefficient way!

Jai's elbows looked flaired outward quite a bit to me. I don't see him using any of the "clearing the line" things we see in PB's example of WSLVT Chi Sau and Lop Sau. And beginner can do rapid chain punching. And in this latest video Jai may be including a tag of "freestyle MMA", but he certainly didn't in those earlier videos. And....I pointed out earlier that almost all of the sparring videos of Alan Orr's guys was in an MMA setting and that didn't seem to make any difference to the discussion then, so why should a "free-style MMA" tag make any difference now?

I'm not trying to bring criticism down on Jai Harmon at all. He looks like a good fighter! And he looks like he is doing a lot of the things that Alan Orr and his guys do! I'm sure Alan would approve! I'm only pointing out that if someone is going to bring a critical eye on CSL Wing Chun via Alan's vids, the same kind of critical analysis should be applied to WSLVT.

 

[KPM]

Needs investigated by the moderators. IP check would be a good start.

Investigate all you want. One could just as easily assume that Guy B. and LFJ were the same person. I don't think I'm the only one that gets confused about which of you said what! You are relatively interchangeable!

 

[guy b.]

Sorry. You are totally off-base. Saul is his own man. His reference about "our" interpretations refers only to the fact that you have singled WSLVT out as being so different than all other Wing Chun. At least that's how I took his meaning. And maybe he was using a different "log on" name in the other forum....I don't know.

There weren't many people on the other forum. Most are here. If one is using an alternaive identity to troll this forum then moderators checking IP addresses would be a quick way to identify who it is.