What percentage of lesson time do you spend on chi Sao?

Status
Not open for further replies.

SaulGoodman

Green Belt
Joined
Mar 3, 2016
Messages
198
Reaction score
68
Hi guys, just curious as to how much lesson time is usually spent on chi Sao? From what I have learnt over the years it can vary from the lions share of the lesson to very little.
 

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,364
Reaction score
3,571
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Hi guys, just curious as to how much lesson time is usually spent on chi Sao? From what I have learnt over the years it can vary from the lions share of the lesson to very little.

In our classes ...it can vary from the lions share of the lesson to very little. :D


...but in truth, we emphasize it a lot, especially at the more advanced levels.
 
OP
SaulGoodman

SaulGoodman

Green Belt
Joined
Mar 3, 2016
Messages
198
Reaction score
68
Interesting Geezer, I'm the same. I go through phases, sometimes more emphasis on chi Sao, sometimes glove work or clinch etc
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
13,960
Reaction score
5,849
Do you two also practice Chi Sao concepts during free sparring? By free sparring I mean sparring as if you were sparring against a non-wing chun person and not a "Chi Sao" sparring competition. Not sure that makes question clearer.
 
OP
SaulGoodman

SaulGoodman

Green Belt
Joined
Mar 3, 2016
Messages
198
Reaction score
68
Trying to "do chi Sao" during sparring will get you hit. When we start talking about what is and isn't sparring, it's a huge can of worms! Sometimes our sparring is goal based, other times we just glove up and see what happens. Chi Sao is where you practice "chi Sao concepts", when we spar (I'm talking about me) im looking to strike/kick/clinch etc. trying to actively "stick" to my partners arms while in the mix is not a good strategy imo.
So where does chi Sao fit into all this? Ultimately the movements/reactions that I've repeatedly loaded into my neural pathways during years of chi Sao practice will hopefully kick in as and when they are appropriate based on my opponents reactions.
In short I'm looking to use the side effects/attributes gained from chi Sao in sparring/fighting. I've had a few scrapes in the street and let me tell you, pukes trying to rip your head off don't play chi Sao with you.
Where I've found chi Sao helped was at the pushing/posturing stage of a fight when the bad guy tried to push my arms / fence out of the way to get into my space (I always teach keeping a "fence" in front of you, which is a modified wu Sao/man sao) this often lead to stimuli that caused an automatic reaction which came from chi Sao training. Once the fight goes "live" however sticking/jamming/trapping becomes low percentage as short bridge to clinch (which is the confrontation range in talking about) gets eaten up in a nano second.
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
13,960
Reaction score
5,849
Trying to "do chi Sao" during sparring will get you hit. When we start talking about what is and isn't sparring, it's a huge can of worms! Sometimes our sparring is goal based, other times we just glove up and see what happens. Chi Sao is where you practice "chi Sao concepts", when we spar (I'm talking about me) im looking to strike/kick/clinch etc. trying to actively "stick" to my partners arms while in the mix is not a good strategy imo.
So where does chi Sao fit into all this? Ultimately the movements/reactions that I've repeatedly loaded into my neural pathways during years of chi Sao practice will hopefully kick in as and when they are appropriate based on my opponents reactions.
In short I'm looking to use the side effects/attributes gained from chi Sao in sparring/fighting. I've had a few scrapes in the street and let me tell you, pukes trying to rip your head off don't play chi Sao with you.
Where I've found chi Sao helped was at the pushing/posturing stage of a fight when the bad guy tried to push my arms / fence out of the way to get into my space (I always teach keeping a "fence" in front of you, which is a modified wu Sao/man sao) this often lead to stimuli that caused an automatic reaction which came from chi Sao training. Once the fight goes "live" however sticking/jamming/trapping becomes low percentage as short bridge to clinch (which is the confrontation range in talking about) gets eaten up in a nano second.
Ok. so you do use the concepts in sparring similar to what was thinking. At the moment I'm only able to stick to punches for a short time, just long enough to redirect them. I not good enough to stick with it and follow it back in. I'm always worried about getting hit with the other fist coming at me to practice is. I have been working on using only my peripheral vision during free sparring and that seems to help with the sticking, jamming, and trapping more.

Successful use of my peripheral vision almost seems like time has slowed down and I can react to the punch or strike before they actually strike. For a jab, I can see even the smallest movement. The smallest movement I've been able to see in a jab was the flexing of shoulder muscle that occurred. I know it sounds way out there but give it a try.
The hardest part of trying to use only peripheral vision is that your eyes will keep trying to focus on your opponent. When I training it, I have to place my focus about 5 inches to the right of my opponents shoulder so it looks like I'm staring at someone to the side of him and I try to spar this way without directly focusing on him. Once I think I have "mastered" that distance then I move my focus inward 4 inches to the right of my opponents shoulder.

From a science point of view our peripheral vision see's motion better so in sparring it only makes sense to use it. If you decide to try it, then let me know how it turns out. I always like to hear peoples amazement when they start talking about "time slowing down." This only works when you are in jabbing range, anything closer is going to require sensing (touching) more than seeing. Maybe this is something that would benefit you as well.
 

wckf92

Master of Arts
Joined
Mar 20, 2015
Messages
1,553
Reaction score
538
Successful use of my peripheral vision almost seems like time has slowed down and I can react to the punch or strike before they actually strike. For a jab, I can see even the smallest movement. The hardest part of trying to use only peripheral vision is that your eyes will keep trying to focus on your opponent. From a science point of view our peripheral vision see's motion better so in sparring it only makes sense to use it.

Yep. For those interested, do some research into the rods and cones of the human eye. Interesting stuff...even more so when applied to certain aspects of daily life, and of course...martial arts! :)
 

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
992
Ok. so you do use the concepts in sparring similar to what was thinking. At the moment I'm only able to stick to punches for a short time, just long enough to redirect them. I not good enough to stick with it and follow it back in. I'm always worried about getting hit with the other fist coming at me to practice is. I have been working on using only my peripheral vision during free sparring and that seems to help with the sticking, jamming, and trapping more.

.

From my understanding.....Wing Chun is about fighting from a bridge. A bridge is contact with an opponent, usually at the forearms. This is where the training of Chi Sau comes in....Chi Sau is about developing sensitivity and control at the bridge. So Wing Chun is designed to be "attached fighting" as much as practical, as opposed to "unattached" exchange of punches. Otherwise what is the point of training Chi Sau? With an "attachment" one can manipulate the opponent's balance and "break his structure." This is not necessarily easy against modern fighters with lots of upper body movement and fast combinations of punches....conditioned from seeing lots of western boxing. But the idea of using Chi Sau concepts in sparring would be to establish a bridge....either when you throw a punch that is intercepted or the opponent throws a punch that you intercept....and to try to keep that bridge as you are striking the opponent or manipulating his balance in some way to set up striking the opponent. If he retracts and moves, you stick and follow it back. If he leaves the bridge to try and go around at a wide angle, you go right up the middle directly and should make contact before he does since a straight line is shorter than a curved one. It shouldn't be a back and forth exchange of punches. It should be...contact is established... then contact is used close in, manipulate, and finish the opponent. This is why so often sparring doesn't look much like Wing Chun....because sparring tends to be a back and forth exchange of punches and kicks. IMHO, Wing Chun was not designed to work like this. Wing Chun was designed to close and finish. Chi Sau skills are for establishing and dominating contact with the opponent until he is finished. This may also be why the "forceflow" skills aren't as evident in sparring. Because a back and forth exchange of punches is not where this is the most useful. Where forceflow skills are the most useful is from a bridge where you then manipulate the opponent's balance and finish him.
 

guy b.

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
1,287
Reaction score
80
Otherwise what is the point of training Chi Sau?

It trains your punch in terms of elbow behavior, unthinking habits and correct reactions. It trains the body and power chain; correct structure and generation of force. It isn't a fighting method (in WSL VT).

This is not necessarily easy against modern fighters with lots of upper body movement and fast combinations of punches....conditioned from seeing lots of western boxing

I would say it is impossible.

It shouldn't be a back and forth exchange of punches

That is what fighting looks like unfortunately, unless you are grappling.

Where forceflow skills are the most useful is from a bridge where you then manipulate the opponent's balance and finish him.

Is this the CSL teaching or just your personal belief?
 
OP
SaulGoodman

SaulGoodman

Green Belt
Joined
Mar 3, 2016
Messages
198
Reaction score
68
Ok. so you do use the concepts in sparring similar to what was thinking. At the moment I'm only able to stick to punches for a short time, just long enough to redirect them. I not good enough to stick with it and follow it back in. I'm always worried about getting hit with the other fist coming at me to practice is. I have been working on using only my peripheral vision during free sparring and that seems to help with the sticking, jamming, and trapping more.

Successful use of my peripheral vision almost seems like time has slowed down and I can react to the punch or strike before they actually strike. For a jab, I can see even the smallest movement. The smallest movement I've been able to see in a jab was the flexing of shoulder muscle that occurred. I know it sounds way out there but give it a try.
The hardest part of trying to use only peripheral vision is that your eyes will keep trying to focus on your opponent. When I training it, I have to place my focus about 5 inches to the right of my opponents shoulder so it looks like I'm staring at someone to the side of him and I try to spar this way without directly focusing on him. Once I think I have "mastered" that distance then I move my focus inward 4 inches to the right of my opponents shoulder.

From a science point of view our peripheral vision see's motion better so in sparring it only makes sense to use it. If you decide to try it, then let me know how it turns out. I always like to hear peoples amazement when they start talking about "time slowing down." This only works when you are in jabbing range, anything closer is going to require sensing (touching) more than seeing. Maybe this is something that would benefit you as well.
Interesting observations Jowga. Personally I've found that when I have been in a potentially violent situation I lost peripheral vision and the threat I faced I saw more in a kind of tunnel vision. My heart rate skyrocketed and my whole body shook. I think it was the effect of adrenaline on me, I do all I can to avoid confrontation these days as its a HORRIBLE place to be. In my formative years I hung out with the wrong people I suppose and violence was part of the culture back there.
 
OP
SaulGoodman

SaulGoodman

Green Belt
Joined
Mar 3, 2016
Messages
198
Reaction score
68
From my understanding.....Wing Chun is about fighting from a bridge. A bridge is contact with an opponent, usually at the forearms. This is where the training of Chi Sau comes in....Chi Sau is about developing sensitivity and control at the bridge. So Wing Chun is designed to be "attached fighting" as much as practical, as opposed to "unattached" exchange of punches. Otherwise what is the point of training Chi Sau? With an "attachment" one can manipulate the opponent's balance and "break his structure." This is not necessarily easy against modern fighters with lots of upper body movement and fast combinations of punches....conditioned from seeing lots of western boxing. But the idea of using Chi Sau concepts in sparring would be to establish a bridge....either when you throw a punch that is intercepted or the opponent throws a punch that you intercept....and to try to keep that bridge as you are striking the opponent or manipulating his balance in some way to set up striking the opponent. If he retracts and moves, you stick and follow it back. If he leaves the bridge to try and go around at a wide angle, you go right up the middle directly and should make contact before he does since a straight line is shorter than a curved one. It shouldn't be a back and forth exchange of punches. It should be...contact is established... then contact is used close in, manipulate, and finish the opponent. This is why so often sparring doesn't look much like Wing Chun....because sparring tends to be a back and forth exchange of punches and kicks. IMHO, Wing Chun was not designed to work like this. Wing Chun was designed to close and finish. Chi Sau skills are for establishing and dominating contact with the opponent until he is finished. This may also be why the "forceflow" skills aren't as evident in sparring. Because a back and forth exchange of punches is not where this is the most useful. Where forceflow skills are the most useful is from a bridge where you then manipulate the opponent's balance and finish him.
Bang on the money KPM, I spar a lot but as sparring should be to and fro giving both parties the chance to try things out applying what I would call "pure wing chun" destroys the Rythm of this "ebb and flow". Applied wing chun to me should result in an asymmetrical exchange where once you enter you control and smash until the threat is no more. I like doing 3 second sparring sometimes where both parties go as fast as they can (not as hard of course) with the objective of trying to obtain a dominant position.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KPM

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
13,960
Reaction score
5,849
Bang on the money KPM, I spar a lot but as sparring should be to and fro giving both parties the chance to try things out applying what I would call "pure wing chun" destroys the Rythm of this "ebb and flow". Applied wing chun to me should result in an asymmetrical exchange where once you enter you control and smash until the threat is no more. I like doing 3 second sparring sometimes where both parties go as fast as they can (not as hard of course) with the objective of trying to obtain a dominant position.
First time I've heard of 3 second sparring. Is this 3 second free sparring or is this in context of doing Chi Sao?
 
OP
SaulGoodman

SaulGoodman

Green Belt
Joined
Mar 3, 2016
Messages
198
Reaction score
68
Chi Sao is a training tool, some people say it should flow and not be pressurized some say it shouldn't be competitive. I train and teach it both of the above and other ways but as far as I'm concerned it's just a piece of the puzzle. It's not a sparring match as such, if I want to spar I might have long range vs short range, kicker vs puncher, clincher vs puncher, shooting for single leg vs kicker etc etc. just like chi Sao, sparring can be trained many different ways. 3 second sparring can take place under different conditions, I might have 2 students facing each other and on the command GO they blast in for 3 secs before we reset. Other times I might get them to both do 50 push ups , they stand up then GO. I'm trying to bring the stress and speed of real confrontation into training. I'm looking to build a mindset in the students to apply "shock and awe" when they need it. Chi Sao has its place but not in these kind of drills
 

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
992
Bang on the money KPM, I spar a lot but as sparring should be to and fro giving both parties the chance to try things out applying what I would call "pure wing chun" destroys the Rythm of this "ebb and flow". Applied wing chun to me should result in an asymmetrical exchange where once you enter you control and smash until the threat is no more. I like doing 3 second sparring sometimes where both parties go as fast as they can (not as hard of course) with the objective of trying to obtain a dominant position.

Ah! I'm glad you got what I was saying. Guy obviously didn't. :rolleyes:
 
OP
SaulGoodman

SaulGoodman

Green Belt
Joined
Mar 3, 2016
Messages
198
Reaction score
68
Ah! I'm glad you got what I was saying. Guy obviously didn't. :rolleyes:

Does he simply disagree and spout invective just to get attention? From what I've seen of his posts both on this forum and "the other one" he seems determined to derail any thread he participates in. He seems to always want to have the "last word" on whatever the subject matter is. I kinda feel sorry for the guy, he really seems angry.
 

guy b.

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 6, 2015
Messages
1,287
Reaction score
80
Guy obviously didn't

Just providing an answer to your question "otherwise what is the point?"

Feel free to carry on with the mutual backslapping if you like, or engage in a conversation. Up to you.
 

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
992
Does he simply disagree and spout invective just to get attention? From what I've seen of his posts both on this forum and "the other one" he seems determined to derail any thread he participates in. He seems to always want to have the "last word" on whatever the subject matter is. I kinda feel sorry for the guy, he really seems angry.

I think you nailed it Saul! ;)
 

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
992
Just providing an answer to your question "otherwise what is the point?"

Feel free to carry on with the mutual backslapping if you like, or engage in a conversation. Up to you.

----Funny how when it was you and LFJ tag-teaming on me it was Ok. Now the shoe is on the other foot and you don't like it. :rolleyes:

But I'll play along.


Guy wrote:
It trains your punch in terms of elbow behavior, unthinking habits and correct reactions. It trains the body and power chain; correct structure and generation of force. It isn't a fighting method (in WSL VT).

---You didn't say anything about the sensitivity or contact. So exactly what "unthinking habits" and "correct reactions" are you talking about? If you are serious about engaging in conversation, why do you seem to always make such general statements and no actual detail and information about your WSLVT? How is rolling going to train a power chain? Seems to me that this is what punching a wall bag or other objects is for.

Guy also wrote:
That is what fighting looks like unfortunately, unless you are grappling.

---Which is wrong, and why I said you obviously didn't get what I was saying! That is what sparring looks like! That was my point! But real fighting is not always a back and forth exchange of punches. There certainly are times where one person closes in and finishes off the opponent without stepping back to admire his work.
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
13,960
Reaction score
5,849
Yep. For those interested, do some research into the rods and cones of the human eye. Interesting stuff...even more so when applied to certain aspects of daily life, and of course...martial arts! :)
This is how we are able to amaze people when we suddenly catch an object that is falling off a table
From my understanding.....Wing Chun is about fighting from a bridge. A bridge is contact with an opponent, usually at the forearms. This is where the training of Chi Sau comes in....Chi Sau is about developing sensitivity and control at the bridge. So Wing Chun is designed to be "attached fighting" as much as practical, as opposed to "unattached" exchange of punches. Otherwise what is the point of training Chi Sau? With an "attachment" one can manipulate the opponent's balance and "break his structure." This is not necessarily easy against modern fighters with lots of upper body movement and fast combinations of punches....conditioned from seeing lots of western boxing. But the idea of using Chi Sau concepts in sparring would be to establish a bridge....either when you throw a punch that is intercepted or the opponent throws a punch that you intercept....and to try to keep that bridge as you are striking the opponent or manipulating his balance in some way to set up striking the opponent. If he retracts and moves, you stick and follow it back. If he leaves the bridge to try and go around at a wide angle, you go right up the middle directly and should make contact before he does since a straight line is shorter than a curved one. It shouldn't be a back and forth exchange of punches. It should be...contact is established... then contact is used close in, manipulate, and finish the opponent. This is why so often sparring doesn't look much like Wing Chun....because sparring tends to be a back and forth exchange of punches and kicks. IMHO, Wing Chun was not designed to work like this. Wing Chun was designed to close and finish. Chi Sau skills are for establishing and dominating contact with the opponent until he is finished. This may also be why the "forceflow" skills aren't as evident in sparring. Because a back and forth exchange of punches is not where this is the most useful. Where forceflow skills are the most useful is from a bridge where you then manipulate the opponent's balance and finish him.
thanks this means that I'm on the right track for how to deal with a WC practitioner. It also seems to validate some of my theories about Jow Ga movement and why things are done a certain way. Thanks for sharing the info about WC.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KPM

LFJ

Senior Master
Joined
Oct 18, 2014
Messages
2,132
Reaction score
451
I just saw Ip Man 3 yesterday. Got free tickets.

In the final scene, they started doing pun-sau in the middle of the fight. :dead:

Reminds me now of how KPM thinks Wing Chun fighting works; in YJKYM with parallel arms and fighting from a "bridge". Choreography by KPM. :joyful:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest Discussions

Top