Rank based on progress vs. merit, and/or when to switch

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by skribs, Sep 12, 2020.

  1. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    I hesitated replying to this post but here it is. If you are convinced in your theory why don't you make your grievance to KKW? It could be valuable information.
    I am truly sorry you think some of us are selling snake oil; I imagine more than just me feels there are major inadequacies in what you are being taught or at the least in what you are digesting. This is purely based on what we hear from you. I have zero information on your school or no factual proof that you even attend a physical school.
    I have said this over and over; a school that is only teaching KKW forms and WT sparring leaves a Lot to be desired. And an instructor who follows that directive is the same. A Ton is missing. I am sorry but that is just the way it is. You cannot work your way out of that no matter what rank you achieve, especially in the same environment.
    You are a big school. I get it. How certain are you that you are not the one in the McDojo? You leave tons of evidence to think this.
     
  2. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    You're assuming I have a grievance. I don't. I used to, until I figured out the real purpose of the forms. Now, I have accepted what they are and find value in them.

    Continuing to press me for personal information is incredibly creepy. Especially since we're arguing with each other. How do I know you're not trying to find out where I train so you can show up outside my school and run me over in the parking lot? I don't know you. What I do know of you tells me I shouldn't tell you anything personal about me, lest I suffer in person the anger I've seen from you online.

    Where have I ever said that all we do is KKW forms and WT sparring? We do plenty of applicable techniques. Just not as part of the poomsae. A typical class includes:
    • Stretching
    • Warm-ups (punching and/or kicking combos)
    • Poomsae
    • WT Kicking drills
    • Self-defense, usually involving throws, sweeps, or joint locks in response to a punch, kick, or grab.
    • WT sparring
    • Jump kicks
    We do the poomsae and the WT sparring, but that's not all we do. I can't ever recall having said that's all we do. In fact, I've been in plenty of arguments on this forum with others that should pretty much prove that's not all we do, based on the techniques that I describe (which aren't in the poomsae and would be banned in WT sparring).
     
  3. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Wow. Paranoid much? I did not ask to disclose anything in my last post. Just stated general facts. We are on opposite sides of the country. Trust me, I am Way too busy to worry that much about you.
    If you are so settled with the forms why do you keep railing on about them?
     
  4. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    You're continuing to insult me for valuing my privacy. I don't care where you are now. I have negative trust for you. You've over-reacted out of anger online. I have no reason to give you any chance of repeating that in person.

    Even if you are trustworthy, you're not the only person on this forum. We've had people on here (who have been banned) who were asking everyone for their phone number so they could talk in person. We've had people banned repeatedly because their posts are psychotic. I don't want any of them to be able to find me, either.

    Because it came up in the conversation. People had suggestions for me on how I should use the forms. Those suggestions don't really make sense with the function of the forms, or the techniques in them. In order to make those suggestions work, I'd have to change the forms. And at that point, I wouldn't really need them, since simply teaching the application in a partner drill is a much more effective way of teaching application, anyway.

    What am I supposed to do? Every time forms are mentioned, not say anything because I've found my peace with their purpose? No. I'll respond honestly with my opinion.

    Other people are getting thrown into a tizzy because their opinions differ from mine. They think I don't like the forms. I do. I just don't think they're directly applicable to fighting.
     
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  5. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    If you want to live your life in paranoia go for it. I am sorry you feel that way.
    I am glad you figured all that out in 5-6 years. There is a mountain if evidence against your conclusions. But roll with it if you want to.
     
  6. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    Quit being a creep.

    I've seen a mountain of evidence. It supports my conclusion. Including pretty much everything you've said on the subject.
     
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  7. wab25

    wab25 2nd Black Belt

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    1. The videos I watched from TKD double knife hand block, showed the right rear hand at shoulder level or slightly higher, then ending at the solar plexus. The last time I checked, my solar plexus is below my shoulders. Therefore, there would be some component of down in the linear motion. However, if your school is different, and the rear hand is at solar plexus level, and moves exactly parallel to the ground... the application I mentioned still works... you still block both hands, in the same direction, torquing the guys guys body, to expose his back. A little down component would make it slightly more effective.

    2. You are not trapping the hand. You are knocking it aside. Remember, by your definition, if it grabs, or traps or has any contact whatsoever, outside of the knife edge of the two hands, it is disqualified as an application. (thats a very silly definition, but it is your definition that you choose to work with.) When the hand starts palm out, and ends palm up, it had to rotate to get that way. That rotation adds to the block, helping to send the other guys hand away further. (it adds rotational energy to the linear energy) In the application I shared, its not that the hand ends palm up... its the rotation of the hand through the motion that is important.

    3. If the right hand went past your center line, you might be correct. But, since the hand goes to your center line (unless your solar plexus is located somewhere else...) it is in an excellent position to slide in for the rear naked choke. One way to get to the rear naked choke when standing that is often taught, is to grab the others guys left elbow, with your right hand... pull his elbow to your center and down, turning his shoulder... this gives you access to his back... and you right hand ends up on your center line. The control offered in my application comes entirely from the block. (remember, any other control or contact, would disqualify the application) You block hard and fast, torquing his body, and arms out of the away, and are prepared to immediately take his back afterwards, before he can recover.

    But, here is what your response really says... It says that you have already made up your mind. The TKD forms have no martial value at all, and in this case, the double knife hand block has no application at all. Therefore the case is closed.... while you may claim that you are open... you are not open at all. Your vast years of training and experience have taught you better. So, why are you asking these questions on a forum? Is it just fun to prove to everyone how right you are and how wrong they are? I guess that could be fun.

    Really step back and look at what happened here. You asked for an example of an application, where the movements had to be exact. The hand positions had to be exact. The contact had to be made only for a brief second, by very specific parts of the hand and the contact had to meet the definition of a block. (note that had the other guy already grabbed your shirt with both hands, the same application works with the exception that it is no longer a "block" but an "escape" therefore disqualifying the application) Your argument is that you might have to change the start or end of one of the hands, by an inch or so... The same inch or so that you allow a boxer to change from his pad work to an opponent. Whats unbelievable is that you left out the most important fault of all with my application. The tongue. In the TKD form, the tongue is held in the middle of the mouth during the double knife hand block. In my application, the tongue would move to the side of the mouth... naturally cancelling out the chi energy flowing to the fingertips. The tongue in the side of the mouth, instead of the center, would redirect the chi elsewhere nullifying the entire effect.

    I know when I have been beaten. I admit, you are the better man. I have much to learn from you. You are correct... in your version of TKD, the forms have no martial application at all. You are not waving your hands around willy nilly... but you are waving your arms around in precise willy nilly, as defined by some book... because it looks good. Also, it helps your memorization skills, which are imperative to good fighting...

    Maybe you can educate me here... why is it that when I watch ballet, jazz, hip hop, ballroom, tap or any other type of dance... I never see the movements from TKD? Or even the positions? If those movements are being chosen because they "look good" why would dance not use those moves as well? Do they not know what looks good?
     
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  8. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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  9. wab25

    wab25 2nd Black Belt

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    You hosed the format, so I can't quote properly...
    Like I said, you don't need a lot of down, or any down to make it work. Again, you allow the boxer to make more adjustment than this to his combo on the bag verses the same combo on an opponent.

    Which is a really good reason to practice it a lot, to get it right. This kind of rotation shows up in most martial arts, and has a ton of uses.

    Guess I will have to explain how a rear naked choke works. If you have blocked both grabbing hands, to your left, torquing his body... you ending up in classic double knife hand block pose. Your left hand would then go across his throat, so that your elbow ends up in the center of his throat. (this means moving closer to him, and to his back) Your right hand would extend across his upper back, and shoulder area, so that the left hand can grasp your right bicep. You will have to rotate your right hand to be palm up while doing this, for the most efficient choke... oh wait, the double knife hand block already left the hand palm up... ;) Then you fold your right hand up and over the back of his head.

    Even if you can't grasp the rear naked choke, after the double knife hand block blocked the double lapel grab... you have yet to argue that it would not block the double lapel grab. I guess you are the only one to realize that you are arguing with the move after, but have yet to argue that the double knife hand block, would nicely block both hands reaching for your lapel. By failing to even argue that the blocks would not prevent the grab... by only going after what could happen after... are you admitting that the block part would work? Feel free to follow up with a kick, since you can't find a rear naked choke in your TKD forms.
     
  10. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    For the RNC you describe, you need your right arm to go around their body. If you have just done the double knifehand block as you describe, his body is in the way. You then have to reach around his body to apply it. Unless you think that you have enough force blocking their arms to turn them 180, in which case that would likely only work if they are drunk or compliant.

    I thought you were talking about getting their left hand in a chicken wing, although now I think of it, that would turn them the wrong way.

    The funny thing is how condescending you are when you describe this, like I'm an idiot for not understanding. That rudeness weakens your argument. It's like you're trying to bully me into accepting your argument.
     
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  11. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    Admin's Note:

    Folks, if you don't like what someone regularly says to you, then feel free to use the Ignore feature that is part of the Xenforo software.
     
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  12. wab25

    wab25 2nd Black Belt

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    As I mentioned, you do have to move your feet to close the distance, to step behind him. That does not take away the fact that the "blocks" done by the "knife hands" worked. You have many follow up opportunities, as you have turned your opponent a bit and have his side and possibly back open, while you are off his center line. Throw a left round kick to his belly instead of the choke. Either way the "block" worked. By your definition, it must be simple and practical. Two hand reach in to grab, two hands get knocked aside, and an opening is presented. Double knife hand block succeeds in blocking both hands.
     
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  13. Balrog

    Balrog Master of Arts

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    In ATA, we test for all ranks. There are no merit promotions.

    The closest one comes to merit is when you make 6th Degree, at which point you are considered a Master Nominee. You begin a year of extra training. In addition, there are certain guidelines for Mastership that have to be met; if you meet them, you are invited to join the next Master's class as a Master Candidate. At the end of the year of training, you are then inducted as a Master Instructor.
     
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  14. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    You don't promote anyone based on merit?
     
  15. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    I second this motion. I've put everybody temporarily on ignore at one time or another, just so I wouldn't get sucked into certain conversations. (I tend to get sucked in easily) Couple days later, I take em off ignore. Seems to work pretty well.

    As for personal info, yeah, probably not a good idea to do that anywhere on-line.
     
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  16. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I suggest you need to change how you handle this. In my opinion, don’t put someone on ignore if you intend, or are tempted, to keep reading what they post. If you decide to put someone on ignore, it ought to be complete and final.

    That has worked well for me. Ignore is a good option, but it won’t do you any good if you don’t really use it.
     
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  17. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Fully agree. I think skribs missed my 'punish them' comment when it comes to blocks. You can certain move a body with a block.
     
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  18. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Yeah, I could learn from that thinking. I am a consumate 'fixer', to a fault. That combined with being a direct *** most of the time doesn't always work well.
     
  19. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Brown Belt

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    Here is great advice (paraphrased) from renown karate fighter Choki Motobu (the original "bad boy" of karate) -

    "It's OK to take 2 steps, but not 3 steps in the same kamae (fighting stance/attitude). One must change position."

    To apply this to recent posts above:

    It's OK to go back and forth a couple of times while defending or challenging positions, but after that, time to re-evaluate your
    stance. Maybe redirection or disengagement. Right or wrong, sometimes it's best to turn away and fight a more worthy battle another day.
     
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  20. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Hold on. You think you're direct? Now that's funny. Dude. I really don't think that's your problem.123
     

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