How do your forms/katas progress?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by skribs, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. skribs

    skribs Master Black Belt

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    Then you're in range of a scissor kick.

    Unless you're fighting Tyrion Lannister or an 8 year old.
     
  2. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    how am i in i in range, I'm two foot away , has this person got telescopic legs
     
  3. skribs

    skribs Master Black Belt

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    How many people do you know with legs shorter than 2 feet long?

    You yourself said your legs are three feet long. You also said you have long legs. Are your legs twice as long as anyone else's?

    Even then, maybe you've answered your own original question. If your legs are so outlandishly long that you can kick someone while out of range of a scissor kick, then maybe it's a tactic unique to you. Just like the tactic of pick-them-up-and-throw-them is unique to bodybuilders. Schools aren't going to teach tactics that only apply to people with legs outside the statistical norm.
     
  4. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    I'm two foot away from the nearest point
     
  5. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    There's some really great stuff in there. Thanks for posting.
     
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  6. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    I suggest you go back and take another look. Multiple replays of the attack and response may help you see what you are missing.
     
  7. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    What I like about this style is the fast get back up from the ground skill that's missing in the most MA systems training.





     
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  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    My point is, unless you are kicking the ends of his arms or legs, you're within reach of his hands and feet.
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'm not enamored of that kind of get back up. I prefer a tactical approach, which is harder to interrupt and doesn't require the sheer athleticism of most of this.
     
  10. skribs

    skribs Master Black Belt

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    If you're 2 feet away from my ribs, I can scissor kick you.

    You don't seem to understand that the person on the ground will have BETTER reach than you, because their path from their hip to your ankle and knee is basically a straight line, while from your hip to their ribs is the hypotenuse.
     
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  11. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Brown Belt

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    Great thread, a little off topic goodness, but tends to be some value in that at times :)

    There definitely seems to be progression in complexity of kata as ranks increase, but what's odd is the way that sometimes higher ranking kata can be placed earlier in the curriculum, and vice versa. I've seen Sanchin placed from the start at 10th kyu level, and elsewhere at 4th kyu (my previous style started it from here, or needing to know it for your 4th kyu grading). Seen Saifa taught at 7th kyu, and others for your 1st Dan. Seiunchin at 3rd kyu and elsewhere 3rd dan. There's really quite a discrepancy huh!

    So it really does depend on the style, and how the kata are viewed. But I do wonder how they classify them and decide which ones are more complex or are more of a progression than others? Because there's quite a difference in placement of curriculum.. and also with katas being performed slightly differently in each style whether this has any bearing on why..

    I like that, definitely one's understanding of kata deepens over time, so you can even see it as progression occurring just within the individual katas, rather than having a need to progress to different ones. Even doing something as simple as Taikyoku Ichi, I'm constantly finding new depths to it.

    It's as though you get the bare bones basics of the mechanics, then work on the subtleties, then see how those subtleties affect other sequences within it, and work on the interplay, transitions and flows.

    My first style had for most grades each kata repeated for two grades, with a new one learned every second grade. It was expected that performing it for the first grading would be the basics of it, and the next grade you should be showing deeper understanding, progression and improvement from the other grading. I thought that was pretty cool. But not sure that was recorded or monitored.
     
  12. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Brown Belt

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    This was an awesome post, thanks for that hoshin1600, really made me think. Kata is a way of transmitting the "feel" of the style, I quite like that :).

    Yeah I'm not too sure if there are kata that are that specific, well I haven't found many, but I know kata like Tsuki No kata really focus on stance transition and has mostly punches (only one kick), and kata like Yantsu has quite a few wrist grab escapes.

    They do certainly seem to have themes, even the translations of names utterly fascinates me. And whilst I'm sure a lot here may think it's a bit 'woo-woo', I quite like the specific names and interpretations, and also trying to embody the spirit of that particular theme/emotion/attitude for that kata, brings a whole new life to it I reckon (Sanchin: 3 battles, Seiunchin: grab and pull in battle, Kururunfa: Holding Ground / Forever Stops, Peacefulness and Tearing)
     
  13. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    i think you need to try this real world, you can flail you legs about, but you not going to get any notable power lay on your back, you can make yourself a difficult target,by trying to keep you legs between us, but i can move as well either to the side. To continue kicking your ribs or back wards out of range, being kicked on the soles of your feet/ ankles is both painful and debilitating, if that's the only target you present.

    I've demonstrated how limited the techneque your suggesting is, by simple expedient of jumping over the attempted scissor kick and landing with both feet on my oppoinent chest,

    , if thats what they are teaching you its fantasy ma your learning,
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  14. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    by end of his arms and legs do you mean hands and feet, ? Both of those are good, pain full and effective targets

    id point out that the alternative you suggested of the low/ kneeling punch very much brings you in to range of hands and feet, only then you have far less mobility to dodge them
     
  15. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    its literally, an entertainment out on to entertain an audience, with a very compliant partner putting him self in the exact position for the next move and falling on command. in that context its extremely well done,

    the effectiveness in any other context is extremely debatable, I'm sure some of those moves will work some of the time against some people. I am definitely sure that all of them won't work all of the time against most people.

    if they don't work you find your self lay on the floor in the middle of a fight, which is not the best place to be. The very best you can say for it, is it's a fairly high risk strategy
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  16. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    Are you saying that this is the only set of techniques in any accepted art that " ...
    all of them won't work all of the time against most people?" And that there is no chance of practice making them work against people, who even if trained well in their art, are not trained in those defenses shown?

    Are there techniques in your art that in are perhaps not highly effective in all circumstances, but are very useful in some circumstances if you are well trained in them?
     
  17. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    I can agree, but I suppose if you continually train, you may be able to pull that off. What worries me most is the breakfalls being done. I mean if that is the best you can accomplish given the way you were thrown, so be it. But coming down on the toe of one foot, and on the elbow in another breakfall scares me. But as I said, he seems to make it work, so perhaps all people could with enough conditioning and practice.
     
  18. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    yes that's very much what I'm saying, though there,a variations on theme. If a techneque isn't going to work all of the time against most people OR most of the time against all people, then its of very limited practical use. if it's failure also outs you in a most disadvantaged position, then it's down right dangerous to attempt anywhere were the consequences of failure are getting your head kicked in, rather then just losing a points match.

    yes there are any number of techniques in my art that i did miss as fantasy, if I'm in,doubt i ask the instructor to demonstrate then on me, whilst i resist, if they don't work when exercised by a black belt on me, then i can be fairly sure they won't work reliably enough to stake my life on them no matter how much i practise
     
  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Both of those are also pretty easy to move out of the way. Much easier than the big jump to the chest you suggest for avoiding a scissors (and putting yourself even better in their range if you don't manage to stomp their chest).

    But I can control them from there. Again, it depends upon the situation. You want it to be an absolute, but it is not. Sometimes the kick is the better answer. Sometimes it is not. Any attempt to argue otherwise requires a counter to every single position and situation...and is fantasy.
     
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  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    It works quite well, but would break down pretty easily, too, under the chaos of real fighting. I've trained a few breakfalls that I would probably only ever use in the dojo, because they make things softer. In the street, they are too easily disrupted.
     
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