Rank based on progress vs. merit, and/or when to switch

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by skribs, Sep 12, 2020.

  1. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ok, it’s what I thought. Firstly, the crane stance would be used to avoid a sweep. Think of it as a standing sweep, not one of those sweeps where the sweeper drops down low. Rather from an upright position he tries to hook behind your ankle with his right foot (against your left) and pull your foot out from under you. So you rise into crane stance. It’s quick and brief and fleeting, you don’t hold the foot up because that would leave you vulnerable. But you lift to avoid his hooking sweep and then put it back down once his foot has passed under you. But simultaneously the low block could be reinterpreted as a jamming move to his upper thigh, meant to disrupt his sweep. You’d could even do that as a two-handed move to make it stronger. So what the upper block would be, I’m not sure off the top of my head, but I just interpreted a useful function of most of that posture from that form.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
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  2. Graywalker

    Graywalker Blue Belt

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    Tap, tap...is this mic on?
     
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  3. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Brown Belt

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    It's true you are not acting out an entire choreographed fight in kata, but rather acting out individual snippets of a fight/potential fights, strung together to practice them. A 2-5 move series may represent one scenario (say, defending a double hi grab with a counter) while another series may be an unrelated scenario (like a simple punch defense incorporating a parry, counter strike and takedown.)

    These moves may look like 2 blocks, but perhaps consider they represent something else. Could it be a type of arm lock? Or maybe a high block (could grab afterwards) and the "low block" is actually a low strike to bladder or groin? You can't always tell a book by it cover.

    As stated above, there may be practical applications to the form's techniques beyond what they appear to be. IMO, about half of these movements are usable in real situations. Of course, when practising these individual short series of moves, one must visualize the "real" meaning of the moves and use a partner to insure they work as originally intended, before they became "performances" or simple basic drilling, instead of combat training.
     
  4. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Fair enough and your assessment could be correct. They could be mostly useful to reinforce fundamental principles as expressed in foundation techniques. However, I suggest that fundamentals and straight-forward, non-complicated techniques are the most useful. That is your bread and butter, they give you the most mileage. So those forms then become useful for application, because you have used them to hone your bread and butter material. Don’t get all twisted up looking for complex applications. Sometimes what you need is just a straight, powerful punch to the face.
     
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  5. wab25

    wab25 2nd Black Belt

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    You do realize, you have given me every single "dislike" I have on this forum... for trying to answer questions that you asked.... Oh well, live and learn....
    A heavy bag won't fall back out of range as a person can when hit. When a person is hit in the head, their head moves away further than their legs do. With a heavy bag, if you hit it in the head, the feet move further than the head. If you are throwing a combo to the head, on a heavy bag, you don't have to move as far as you would, when hitting a person in the head. Heavy bags also don't double over from body blows. They don't bob, weave, block, turn, or hit back. All of these actions would cause "changes" to the form you practiced on the bag.

    The person you are boxing, will move differently than the pads. You and a pad holder can work out amazing pad drills, that you will never see in the ring. See Pacquiao and Roach...

    There is your problem, you are restricting everything by what you know. Actually, this application you will be familiar with the attack. You probably have another defense for it. But, this one would work just as well... maybe better in some respects. And there are no changes in form or label needed.
     
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  6. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Personally I don’t spar against a heavy bag. I do work some combos, but mostly I work my fundamental techniques, over and over to just drill in my mechanics and get comfortable hitting something hard. I cycle through my hand strikes and kicks and some elbows and such, but mostly one tech at a time, with some amount of combos.

    That’s my approach, anyways.
     
  7. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    If the problem is that I don't know the application, what does that say about how well the form teaches the application? You're kind of proving my point.
     
  8. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    And that's where my issue is. Each of those pieces of the technique make sense. Put 2 or 3 of them together, and it gets harder to explain. Other than that it's good for balance, or that it looks cool, of course.
     
  9. Graywalker

    Graywalker Blue Belt

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    This crane stance, with the upper and lower blocks, is a bunkai from the Nohai/rohai kata in Kwon Bup.

    Attacker- left punch to head
    Defender- circles the left hand over the strike and down, closing the left arm across the body and then a left side kick to the attackers body.

    That is one application for this move in Kwon Bup.
     
  10. wab25

    wab25 2nd Black Belt

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    Since I (not being a TKD guy) could look at the form and find the application... the form seems to be doing its job just fine. This one is not complicated at all.
     
  11. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Well, In my experience the forms that reinforce principles more than reenact a fight, often contain that kind of thing. Every part of the sequence may not apply to every useful application. But a different interpretation with some portion of that sequence might include that part that was left out.

    I guess the thing is being willing to let go of the notion that every piece has to be included exactly as it is found in the form. If you can’t do that, then you are in for a lot of frustration. If you can do that, then you start to find a lot of useful stuff.
     
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  12. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    And that's what I did. If I can't find a use for it, I deemed it impractical. I ruffled a lot of feathers by doing so...
     
  13. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    I'd love to hear an actual application that isn't snake oil. Do you have one like that? Or just more snake oil?

    It's like if I go into a car dealership and say I want a red sports car. And the dealer shows me a red minivan, and a blue sports car, and is flabbergasted that I don't want either of them. He showed me a red car. He showed me a sport car. But somehow it's my fault for not liking the cars he showed me.
     
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  14. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Responding somewhat in reverse but why do you think I do not respond on reddit? I just have a different screen name.

    I honestly do not remember you asking the questions. That is on me.
    I think you will not buy this but down, inside, outside, & high blocks are used constantly in sparring. And certainly, a classic jab and reverse punch, in classic form style. No, the blocks are usually not executed as dramatic or fully as in forms. That is why we do them that way in forms; so we have the mechanics. I agree that this is not stressed nearly enough in a full on KKW curriculum. Someone mentioned this earlier, a competition only curriculum is going to be geared that way and will not include other things like self defense and philosophy. So think about this; if given the opportunity would you not do a full block? To rephrase, when I want to punish someone with a block or the stakes are higher (SD vs. competition) I am going to use as much of the form mechanics as possible.

    To your specific blocks:
    • Double Knife-Hand Block (Taegeuk 4) - Yes in sparring. Think of a front guard and a mid level kick block.
    • Low Block to one side, Outside Block to another (Taegeuk 8) - Probably, but not that I can remember off hand. But it does not get much more basic than that does it?
    • Crane Stance, Low Block + High Block (Keumgang) - Yes in sparring multiples outside of KKW/WT rules. Avoiding a leg check/sweep and then stepping back and blocking high. Not quite the same but the application is there.
    • Double Mountain Block (Keumgang) - No. I agree this has a good amount of expression to it. But they are high blocks (or outside blocks, whichever way you view them) in essence are they not?
    • Scissor Block (Taegeuk 7) - Yes. Great disarming tool.
     
  15. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Excellent post. Simply excellent.
     
  16. wab25

    wab25 2nd Black Belt

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    I will explain this with you standing in a natural stance at the start for simplicity. The attack is a double lapel grab. Some guy is going to grab both of your lapels at the same time to shove you up against a wall or do some throw. Your left hand comes up to your right ear, which goes between his two arms, the right hand goes back to the right as you start to shift into a back stance. This back stance turns you 90 degrees to your left, putting the attacker on your right side and putting you off his center line. The more you drop down into the back stance, the harder it will make his throw, should he get your lapels. Now, when you execute the double knife hand block, your left hand blocks his right hand from grabbing your lapel, your right hand blocks his left hand from grabbing your other lapel. Done with force (which is why the draw back is so emphasized) this should turn and off balance the other guy... he should be turned towards his right. This puts your slightly behind his left shoulder. That right hand block is coming down to cover your solar plexus, which blocks the attackers left arm down and out of the way. From here you could continue, by stepping your right foot behind him, and using your left arm to initiate a rear naked choke. Because your right hand blocked his left arm down, on its route to the solar plexus, your left arm can easily go across his neck for the choke, as you step behind. (the step behind and choke are extra, but it gives reasons for why the right hand comes across and down, it clears the way for the choke right after...)

    If you will allow "blocks" to be "strikes" or "open hands" to be "grabs" and "throws" or "locks"... or even the back swing to be used... things get more fun.
     
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  17. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    A Whole lot to learn in parables.
     
  18. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Also exactly why I said tweeners and MMA.
     
  19. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ok i watched the video clip again that I found of that form, with the crane stance. The upper block movement, it is a rising/clearing block across the front, defending the face. You don’t need to attach it to the crane stance and the rest of it. You can view it simply on its own, defending the front and the face.

    Where you insert it in your own use is up to you. It doesn’t need to be complex. In fact it’s better if it is not complex.
     
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  20. skribs

    skribs Grandmaster

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    Those blocks I have no problem with. Where I start to have issue is at the advanced form. I've heard a lot of times that the advanced level is where you stop learning techniques, and start learning application. But my experience with Taekwondo is at the advanced level, you keep learning techniques, they're just more complicated techniques with less practical application.

    Why is your support hand palm-up in this case? Why is it touching your solar plexus instead of away from your body to prevent the kick from landing?

    Uh...how is that "basic?" You're blocking two attacks on complete opposite corners. It makes 0 sense to me in a real-world setting. The explanation I usually hear is "blocking 2 attacks from 2 enemies", which leads me into my 2nd requirement - that the application make sense.

    I can easily see the application for each of those moves. But the timing in the form suggests they should be done all at once. If my opponent goes for a leg kick, body kick, head punch combo, then crane stance, down block, high block is an effective dodging/blocking strategy. But done all at once, as in the form, it makes no sense.

    We use a block that moves in a similar direction, but the mechanics are different. We start both arms at the shoulder (instead of one at the hip), and our hands stay within about 6 inches from each other (instead of all the way across). If we did the block as in the form, one of our hands would be nowhere near the block. I can also see a similar motion for a block and hammerfist combination, but then the angle of the hammerfist is wrong (your elbow would get in the way).

    I'll agree that scissor motions are great for disarms. However, in my experience it's usually a rolling motion instead of a crossing motion (i.e. block, hook, roll instead of crossing). The times we use a scissor motion for a disarm it's a scissor with the hands, instead of the arms.

    I also see similar principles in the scissors block as in one of our blocks at blue belt. It doesn't have a name in our school, but I call it the side cross block. One arm protects your ribs and side, the other arm protects your face and neck. It's useful against roundhouse kicks. You can also snap your hands shut like an alligator's mouth and catch the leg real easy (if you go outside the realm of KKW sparring). Where I see similarity between the scissor block is in lining up the elbows between the down block and the higher block. But it's a completely different motion.

    I say this to say that I see how the principles can be learned. I just don't see how the exact technique can be used.

    Three problems with this:
    1. The double-knife hand block, as done in TKD forms, is a lateral movement. The right hand block isn't coming down. It's coming straight in.
    2. If I'm going to trap their hand down, I'll either want my palm facing in (to trap against my body) or down (to help feel his movement and zone him out). I don't see any reason to do that with the palm up, as the form would suggest.
    3. Your right arm is going to get in your own way if you're going for that RNC. If you get your right arm out of the way, then you've lost control over their arm.
    This is what I mean by the boxer's punch on a heavy bag makes sense, where the techniques in the forms don't. A boxer will have to adjust to hit his opponent, but other than adjustments to his aim, the technique on a heavy bag is solid. The techniques as done in the form need to be adjusted just to make proper use of the body mechanics to apply them to the application you see.

    Exactly my point. I'm not at all saying that forms are bad. I'm saying the techniques, as done in the forms are done for aesthetics and body mechanics. The body mechanics are certainly useful. But to do the techniques as they are in the forms is folly.

    Now, here is my understanding of those techniques mentioned above, with this idea in mind:
    • Double Knife-Hand Block (Taegeuk 4) - helps teach moving your upper body momentum to one side of the stance (as opposed to a regular knife-hand block, where your upper body remains neutral, as one arm goes out to the block, and the other hand goes back to the chamber position)
    • Low Block to one side, Outside Block to another (Taegeuk 8) - Off the top of my head, I equate this as the martial arts version of rubbing your tummy and patting your head.
    • Crane Stance, Low Block + High Block (Keumgang) - the crane stance is a balance exercise. The blocks are mainly to do something with your hands while balancing, and they look pretty cool.
    • Double Mountain Block (Keumgang) - Similar mechanics as the double knife-hand block, except you're turning in with the step instead of turning out with the step.
    • Scissor Block (Taegeuk 7) - Helps with scissor motions (which can be disarms, or scissor sweeps), as well as controlling the levels of your blocks (matching the elbow of your down block to the elbow of your outside block).
    I can see a purpose for these. Just not a direct application.

    Except that's r/MMA, not r/Taekwondo. Except for one guy on r/Taekwondo, but nobody likes him because all he does is put down TKD.

    But you do need to attach it when you're doing Keumgang. The suggestion in the form is that they are together. It's impossible to view it on its own when watching someone do Keumgang, unless you only see them from the shoulder up. Otherwise, you see the down block as well.123
     

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