Steve,lhommedieu said:
First thanks for the link back to this forum from your website
I was not able to find the discusson on Jesus Cui. Is it possible for you to guide me to which article and or sub page has the post.
Thank You
:asian:
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First thanks for the link back to this forum from your website
I was not able to find the discusson on Jesus Cui. Is it possible for you to guide me to which article and or sub page has the post.
Thank You
:asian:
lhommedieu
Black Belt
Rich Parsons said:Steve,
First thanks for the link back to this forum from your website
I was not able to find the discusson on Jesus Cui. Is it possible for you to guide me to which article and or sub page has the post.
Thank You
:asian:
Rich,
The first quote is located on this page:
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/momoy.htm
The information about Jesus Cui was based on conversations that Tom Bisio had with Yoling Canete in 1984 (?), as well as personal email correspondence with Ramon Rubia and Steve Drape - and Steve Drapes article on Eskrima in post-1900 Cebu. It is, admittedly, not a lot - but the focus was supposed to be on teachers that influenced Momoy Canete. (In that respect, I have always thought that there is a great book or article out there to be written about the Saavedras, if someone had access to information about them.)
A google search for "Jesus Cui" yielded the web page about Inting Carin; I thought it was interesting that Jesus Cui is referred to as an knife expert (other sources also indicate that he was a Jujustu teacher).
Best,
Steve Lamade
Thank You Steve.lhommedieu said:
I have heard the name before and it was always associated with the Combat Judo and also with Doces Pares and Stick and Knife. I could see the extrapolation to Knife only, quite easily. I although had not heard of Jesus Cui as being Balintawak. I am planing on asking my instructor Manong Ted Buot Tomorrow when I see him.
As I have said before, if you get a chance to train with any of the names form Cebu who were in the Doces Pares or Balintawak or in their own art. You should check it out.
Just my opinion.
:asian:
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Joe Eccleston
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"The information about Jesus Cui was based on conversations that Tom Bisio had with Yoling Canete in 1984 (?), as well as personal email correspondence with Ramon Rubia and Steve Drape - and Steve Drapes article on Eskrima in post-1900 Cebu. It is, admittedly, not a lot - but the focus was supposed to be on teachers that influenced Momoy Canete."
this is going on a tangent, but is this the same tom bisio from pekiti tirsia who defeated a master(?) from doce pares named uy in 1979? if so, did he train with yoling canete before or after his time with leo gaje? i read this in a forum, but have forgotten which, i'll try to find where i read this in the mean time.
this is going on a tangent, but is this the same tom bisio from pekiti tirsia who defeated a master(?) from doce pares named uy in 1979? if so, did he train with yoling canete before or after his time with leo gaje? i read this in a forum, but have forgotten which, i'll try to find where i read this in the mean time.
I talked to Manong Buot tonight. He informed me that even though Jesus Cui was a close personal friend to Bacon and the Balintawak club, he was not a Balintawak practitioner.
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Red Blade
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Question 4
How does Crispulo Atillo fit into the mix? The following is posted on the net and it seems to conflict with some of the things that I've read.
Atillo Balintawak is a powerful Filipino martial art developed by Grandmaster Crispulo "Ising" Atillo based on the style of the legendary Grandmaster Doring Saavedra. This art focuses on stick fighting, and its application with bladed weapons, as well as empty hands. It is a highly efficient style in combat and tournament situations. Art, efficiency, and power are put together to produce this awesome fighting system for self-defense.
How does Crispulo Atillo fit into the mix? The following is posted on the net and it seems to conflict with some of the things that I've read.
Atillo Balintawak is a powerful Filipino martial art developed by Grandmaster Crispulo "Ising" Atillo based on the style of the legendary Grandmaster Doring Saavedra. This art focuses on stick fighting, and its application with bladed weapons, as well as empty hands. It is a highly efficient style in combat and tournament situations. Art, efficiency, and power are put together to produce this awesome fighting system for self-defense.
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Joe Eccleston
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Red Blade said:
Red Blade said:
I've already posted this on another thread, but here it is again:
http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=218
It's from the Dog Brothers forum. A very lively and entertaining discussion, to say the least, about the very question you've just asked.
lhommedieu
Black Belt
Tom Bisio shared the co-champion title with Master Uy. He trained with Momoy Canete on three separate occasions from 1979-1984. Tom left the Leo Gaje's Pekiti Tirsia organization in the early 1990's. Up until recently, he has taught Filipino martial arts, Kajukenbo (Emperado method), Xing Yi Quan, and Ba Gua Zhang, in New York, and currently runs an acupuncture clinic that specializes in the treatment of musculoskeletal injuries. He has a book coming out this fall, from Simon and Schuster, on the treatment of sports injuries from the perspective of Chinese medicine - as well as a couple other books in development.
Best,
Steve Lamade
Joe,Joe Eccleston said:here's a 1950s photo. the three attorneys in the middle sitting are flanked by Anciong Bacon and Jesus Cui. to Anciong Bacon's right is Delfin Lopez. standing in the opposite end are Vincente Atillo and Timoteo Maranga. in the middle of this same row is Arnulfo Mongcal. standing behind Atillo and Maranga is Eduardo Baculi.
(all the info came out of this forum)
Where did the information about Jesus Cui come from for this picture.
Manong Ted Buot who met and knew the gentleman, did not recognize him at all in this picture. Now I agree the print I had may not have been the best. Hence my request for where your data came from?
Also to Jesus Cui issue, Manong Ted informed me tonight that Jesus and Anciong were real close. They would watch the other train but not actually train with each other. When Manong Ted Buot and Jesus Cui were on the floor together it was Jesus trying to show people Combat Judo. Jesus Cui did have some real good Karate and Judo, as well as training in the Doces Pares. The story I was also told included the son of Jesus and that he could break coconuts with his hands and strikes.
Like I said, no disrespect, I am just trying to find the link to Balintawak other than he was a very good friend to GM Anciong Bacon.
Thanks
:asian:
Joe Eccleston said:
Joe,
I do not know if you were involved in that discussion much or not.
I have a problem with a lot of the information on that thread.
Yet, it does explain why you once posted Balintawak Arnis. You may have seen it there or been a part of GM Taboada's group that sometimes uses this term. It was and is Eskrima or Escrima, or that is how I have heard the two who trianed there tell me. This is how I have seen it written by many others as well.
As pointed out by Toasty over there, if you read all the different histories and they are all close and have over lapping information then this rings true. If one sticks out like a sore thumb, because of how different it is then, I suspect it.
As I pointed out earlier on this board and others:
Anyone from that linage who trained in Cebu or directly with one of those from there should have skill.
All the problems between Doces Pares and Balintawak were between students not the instructors. Yet in this case with Atillo, I believe the issue now hinges around what he has said and told people. I do not doubt he has faught. I do not doubt he has skill. Yet, I do not like all combat matches (* anymore *).
A big issue was raised of who had actullly faught with out armor. I think this is smart to do and to learn the hard way that it hurts and it is serious. Try it with someone with a tire iron or a 2X4 or baseball bat or stick who does nto know you and wants to kill or serious hurt you.
And even then to me it does matter anymore about this. Been there done that. I did not like the police hand cuffs. I did like spending my nights in the hospital (* As the winner, I was conscious most of the others were not. *). So, I see no personal reason to go out and fight. I will defend myself, and as Rocky put it on another thread, he made himself available, as I did. So, I coudl tell the police i was just standing there when it all went down. Yet what does it mean? Nothing today. That was then. Or that is how i see it for myself.
Yet, I do find it hard to believe that he wishes to honor his father and Anciong both by using Balintawak and making claims, including beating people he has not faught. And I am not discussing the Anciong Bacon supposed fight or training session either. Why would someone have to say these things to make themselves feel better? Why would they have to say these things to make others feel bad? To make more money? To get more students?
As I stated before, just train, learn from people you can learn from. Investigate and listen to what others have to say.
Sorry for my Rant.
:asian:
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Joe Eccleston
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jesus cui was mentioned by my teacher as being responsible for the combat judo and knife defenses found in balintawak. this was my first exposure to this name. i researched in the internet and found more consistent information about jesus cui and balintawak (that he was somehow connected to balintawak during the beginning years of this organization). i stumbled on the picture above and asked about it. someone mentioned that the guy sitting opposite of anciong bacon, flanking the three lawyers, was indeed jesus cui. i assumed this was jesus cui. now, as you have stated, maybe it isn't jesus cui.
Yet, it does explain why you once posted Balintawak Arnis. You may have seen it there or been a part of GM Taboada's group that sometimes uses this term. It was and is Eskrima or Escrima, or that is how I have heard the two who trianed there tell me. This is how I have seen it written by many others as well.
this part i don't understand at all, what you're trying to say.
Yet, it does explain why you once posted Balintawak Arnis. You may have seen it there or been a part of GM Taboada's group that sometimes uses this term. It was and is Eskrima or Escrima, or that is how I have heard the two who trianed there tell me. This is how I have seen it written by many others as well.
this part i don't understand at all, what you're trying to say.
With the exception of GM Taboada's Group which uses Balintawak Arnis or at one Cuentada Balintawak Arnis Escrima or Balintawak Arnis Escrima. GM Taboada did this to show respect to his lineage and also to show it was not 100% the same. GM Remy Presas and Manong (GM) Ted Buot who both trained at the club on Balintawak street, told me that the art was/is Escrima and the practitioners are Escrimadors.Joe Eccleston said:
It was not meant as any type of insult. It was meant to make sure the proper name name was being used. In reference to the Balintawak Street, everone I have personally talked to says Escrima. GM Bobby Taboada has put in Arnis as well. This is his priviledge. GM Remy Presas also called his art Modern Arnis, because he did add many things and changed the teaching method hence his own art.
I know how you present yourself here as someone who tries to get the data correct. I was just pointing out where you could improve to avoid confusion. GM B Taboada's website currently has Baliantawak Arnis Escrima.
:asian:
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Joe Eccleston
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oh, sorry... that was my mistake then. i just simply copied the website address which was balintawak-arnis.com, hence the 'bobby taboada's balintawak arnis' title. i wasn't aware this word carried so much meaning. my apologies.
No Apologies required.Joe Eccleston said:
I just wanted to share theinformation wiht you as you seem to be interested.
You have tried to share infomration wiht me and others here, I thought it was only fair. :asian:
Best Regards
Red Blade said:
Sound like someone's STORY is a little off. :toilclaw:
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Joe Eccleston
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You cannot really blame GM Atillo... The martial arts industry is a very Cut-Throat business.
Joe Eccleston said:
If his information is wrong then, yes I can blame him!
Renegade said:
I think what he did was credit the art back to one of its ancestors. The Saavedras were among the original players of Doce Pares and Bacon and Vicente Atillo learned from them. Vicente Atillo left Doce Pares with Bacon and was part of what eventually became Balintawak. Vicente Atillo taught Ising Atillo. A lot of credit is given to the Saavedras in the Doce Pares >> Balintawak lineage. Even if it is just for marketing, it holds some water. Also it's very similar to advertisements that a lot of EPAK and Wing Chun derivative guys do with Ed Parker, Yip Man, and Bruce Lee.
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Joe Eccleston
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That point was already brought up in the DogBrothers forum, bart... the rebuttle for that was that if GM Atillo wanted to credit Saavedra then why not call his art Doce Pares or Saavedra Eskrima? Also why would one have to claim that he defeated Venancio Bacon to "credit the art back to one of its ancestors". This has been covered in the DogBrothers forum, if you've read it. Basically, the discussion stopped at this question: Who lied about the Ising Atillo vs. Anciong Bacon challenge match, GM Atillo himself or his students?
Me, personally, I think the students got a little too eager, but since they took most of the not so accurate contents off their website, there should be no more problem.
Me, personally, I think the students got a little too eager, but since they took most of the not so accurate contents off their website, there should be no more problem.
Joe Eccleston said:
I read that thread and stayed out of it. Many of the people made their claims on heresay and ultimately it just go too nasty and descended into name calling and challenges etc. I didn't see a contribution to a flame war as productive.
I should have been more clear, but by credit I did not mean "give credit", I meant "use the credit of". Could it be that he is using both of the names Balintawak and Saavedra to make his style more known and recognizable and to give his art a sense of additional legitimacy? If he claims he defeated the founder of Balintawak, he still is using the name for self aggrandizement. Also regardless of whether credit is being used or given, the fact is there is Saavedra in his lineage from his father and from the Doce Pares that Balintawak emerged from. So although on the surface it is somewhat misleading it is also, albeit in a lesser sense, somewhat true. And I assume that he would stay away from calling his own art Doce Pares because of his duel with Doce Pares GM Cacoy Canete which he did not win.
I don't mean to defend Atillo, I'm not his student. I'm not his proponent. But regardless of what untruths there are in what he has said, mixed among them there are some true things. He does have a direct lineage to the Saavedras. All he did in his advertisement was skip the middle men.
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