Questions about Balintawak

[Joe Eccleston]

I agree, bart. His father's picture, does appear in that old Balintawak photo taken in the 1950s. As far as I am concerned, the Atillo/Bacon fight has been debunked. Everything has been cleared up.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I read that thread and stayed out of it. Many of the people made their claims on heresay and ultimately it just go too nasty and descended into name calling and challenges etc. I didn't see a contribution to a flame war as productive.

I should have been more clear, but by credit I did not mean "give credit", I meant "use the credit of". Could it be that he is using both of the names Balintawak and Saavedra to make his style more known and recognizable and to give his art a sense of additional legitimacy? If he claims he defeated the founder of Balintawak, he still is using the name for self aggrandizement. Also regardless of whether credit is being used or given, the fact is there is Saavedra in his lineage from his father and from the Doce Pares that Balintawak emerged from. So although on the surface it is somewhat misleading it is also, albeit in a lesser sense, somewhat true. And I assume that he would stay away from calling his own art Doce Pares because of his duel with Doce Pares GM Cacoy Canete which he did not win.

I don't mean to defend Atillo, I'm not his student. I'm not his proponent. But regardless of what untruths there are in what he has said, mixed among them there are some true things. He does have a direct lineage to the Saavedras. All he did in his advertisement was skip the middle men.

Bart,

I think I agree with you here .

It is good to give credit to your lineage and those that helped you get where you are. If you do something all by yourself and split away, and you still give credit to where your fundamentals and basics and original instruction came from, I think this is good. Including the use of teh Saavedras.

I do think it is a problem though for someone to use names that are misleading, and are only there for marketing or gathering of students.

Like I said before, Atillo should just teach, and let his stick work and tecniques speak for himself. Yet this is me.

 

[Red Blade]

He does have a direct lineage to the Saavedras. All he did in his advertisement was skip the middle men.

I thought I remember reading somewhere that he and/or his father were students of Delphin Lopez.


?????

 

[bart]

I thought I remember reading somewhere that he and/or his father were students of Delphin Lopez.
?????

Please excuse me but I'm going to quote myself from earlier in the thread.

The Saavedras were among the original players of Doce Pares and Bacon and Vicente Atillo learned from them. Vicente Atillo left Doce Pares with Bacon and was part of what eventually became Balintawak. Vicente Atillo taught Ising Atillo. A lot of credit is given to the Saavedras in the Doce Pares >> Balintawak lineage.

I don't know for sure about Vincente Atillo training under Delphin Lopez as a student. I think they were contemporaries at least although I don't know so I'm not sure. As for Ising Atillo, he very well might have been a student of Delphin Lopez at one time or another. I don't know for sure. The thing about these eskrimadors is they train under different people at different times throughout pretty long lives and have direct lineages from different points. But regardless of whether they were students of Delphin Lopez, the lineage to Saavedra is still there as Delphin Lopez has a relationship with Saavedra.

 

[loki09789]

Red,

Your bio just says FMA/JKD, I was curious who your intel sources might be and where you are training in Bk? I started with Bobby Taboada a while ago, but had to stop for education and deployment reasons. I know that the majority here are Ted Buot students, but wasn't sure for you since JKD is geographically more common on the west coast and in NYC.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

QUOTE]


Quoted the wrong one.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

But regardless of whether they were students of Delphin Lopez, the lineage to Saavedra is still there as Delphin Lopez has a relationship with Saavedra.

If this is true then no credit was given to his teacher, Delphin Lopez or his teacher Anciong Bacon.

 

[bart]

If this is true then no credit was given to his teacher, Delphin Lopez or his teacher Anciong Bacon.

Only if you take this as the only statement he's ever made about eskrima.


Atillo is not a youngster and he's said many things, apparently some true, some false, some in between the two, and sometimes misleading things as well.

Paul Vunak sites Bruce Lee as a person that he based his fighting philosophy on, but Bruce died a couple years before Paul started training in a JKD curriculum. Is it misleading for him to site Bruce as he does? I don't think so. I credit some of what I teach in my classes as having origin in the writings of Marcus Aurelius, Sun Tzu, and Lao Tze. Am I wrong for not mentioning the professors that introduced me to their writings everytime that I say something about it? I don't think so.

When Atillo is attributing his stuff to Saavedra, he is citing a reference as a basis for his style. And like most people who are established in an art, he has a lot to draw from, among them apparently Delphin Lopez and others.

The original question here was the honesty of the statement. The truth is that in his lineage he does have a close and direct lineage to Saavedra through his father alone as well as the many teachers that he's had and come across over the years including Anciong Bacon. So the claim, even though misleading in the marketing ploy, is nonetheless NOT devoid of truth.

Again, I don't intend to defend Atillo, but what he is saying has truth in it regardless of whether people are rankled by it or not.

 

[Red Blade]

Again, I don't intend to defend Atillo, but what he is saying has truth in it regardless of whether people are rankled by it or not.

So does this mean since Datu Hartman was a student of GM Presas he should give credit to the Saavedras?

 

[Cruentus]

If this is true then no credit was given to his teacher, Delphin Lopez or his teacher Anciong Bacon.

I am going to try not to "slam" anyone here until I have a chance to meet/play with the man or his students myself, or before my Teacher has the chance to meet with him or talk with him face to face (if that ever happends), because until I know all sides outside "internet" stuff, I don't feel that it is my place. So...bare with me here.

It appears that Atillo is attempting to appeal to a higher authority, and that he is not being straight forward about his lineage. In other words, Everyone else who claims Balintawak agrees that Anciong is the top of the family tree for the art. Even though he learned from the Saavadre family, it is clear that his developement was unique enough, in comparison to others from the same lineage, to start his own system. This is evident when you compare Doce Pares to Balintawak; there are as many similarities as differences, and it is clear that the styles are different, even though the lineage of both can be traced to the Saavadre family.

So, every other Balintawak player accept Atillo agree's to be on a similar playing field, in that they all regard Anciong as the top of the family tree. Atillo, it appears, does not want to be on this playing field, so he is attempting to appeal to a "higher authority" then Anciong by acrediting both his father and Saavadre's (Anciongs teacher, ironically) with his instruction. By appealing to this authority, he puts himself on the same tier as Anciong, thus making everyone else who claims Anciong as the top of the family tree "below him." Furthermore, by fabricating the idea that he was able to beat Anciong in a "play" match, he now puts himself above even Anciong himself.

Now, of course, only his students will buy this premises. Everyone else on the planet see's that there is something fishy going on here, and that the facts aren't matching up.

Now, there are some obvious problems with what has happened here. For one, the biggest problem with this, or ANY kind of posturing with regards to lineage, rank, title, or status, is that NONE OF THESE ARE CONDUSIVE TO SKILL. There is a logical falicy called "argumentum ad verecudiam" which basically means that you appeal to a higher authority to try to determine an arguement, which doesn't make the arguement true. When people try to posture with lineage, rank, or status, then this is exactly what is occuring. In this case, the arguement is, "Atillo's lineage goes beyond Anciong Bacon, so he must be "better" then everyone else under Anciong's lineage!" This would be equally as illogical as me saying, "I can beat up so and so because I have a black belt, and he has a brown belt." The only thing that determines who has more skill is if practioners have the chance to test each others skill out to "prove" who is better, and lineage or rank will not make this any different.

Problem #2 is that a lot of the claims that are being made publically have no actual proof behind them. When you make a claim, the burden of proof is on YOU, not everyone else. If you make a claim, especially if it is a claim that seems very unbelievable, then you have to expect that people want to see proof. If you can't provide proof, then you shouldn't state the claim publically in the first place. So, let's say that I beat Mike Tyson in an arm wrestling match (I didn't, but lets just say). I might tell you this over some beers, where I don't care if you believe it or not. But, I am not going to put it up on a website or on the internet or in my marketing materials unless I can provide evidence that this event really occured (if called on), otherwise I will be called a liar. The point is, when you make a claim that can't be verified, you risk being looked at as a lying. This often causes you to have to try to verify the claim through more shakey evidence, which makes you look worse. Or, some people will resort to outright lying which causes another trap altogether.

Problem #3 Lying breeds more lies. Maybe Atillo decided to inflate a story here or there to market himself. Maybe it was his students. Maybe it was a mixture of both. Maybe stories just got inflated mysteriously by accident. Regardless, the inflation of credability is a lie. And lie's reduce your credability to practically nothing. However, the biggest problem with lies is if and when they are called out, you are now put between a rock and a hard place. You can either admit that you lied, therefore damaging your credability. Or, you can stick to the lie and try to cover it up. The later usually takes even MORE lies and inflated stories to do so. The fish ends up getting so big that no one believes you except your "followers" and your credibility is damaged even more-so then if you would have just admitted to lying in the first place.

So these are the problems that Atillo and his group has. I am not going to sit here and say that he isn't skilled, or that his students aren't skilled. I have never seen them to know one way or the other. I am not here calling Atillo a liar, at least not at this time. I am here to say that Atillo seems to have caught himself between a rock and a hard place. There are claims out there that are "big fish" to the public eye. I am not sure what started it initially, but the irony is that some information started for marketing reasons; information that may not be entirely true, or may be true but unverifiable. This information was challanged, so more and more claims came out, causing a snowball effect.

Whether deserved or not, the "Fish" is so big now that it has become uncontrolable, and can barely fit in the lake. The majority of the players in FMA circles do not believe Atillo's claims 100%. I am not trying to be a jerk here by saying this, I am just stating the cold hard facts. The irony is that if this "fish" was created for marketing reasons, it has had the opposite effect.

Now, I know I said I wasn't going to "slam" anyone, so please note that this isn't the intent of my post. I did not say Atillo was a bad person, unskilled, or a "liar." But I am stating the cold, hard facts as to how he is percieved, and the dilemma that he has created for himself.

I have done P.R. work before, and I know a fair amount about marketing oneself. I worked with an international Law Firm who had built up a bad reputation, and I helped to reverse the public perception of the firm through client contact, marketing, and advertisements. I would be happy to offer my advice and help as to how to "reverse" this dilemma to Atillo and his students if I ever get the chance to meet them, and if this subject matter is brought up. So, before Atillo's students or anybody else trys to discredit or slam me and my post, I suggest that you realize that I am only stating the facts, and that I am willing to help rather then hurt Atillo and his situation.

:asian:

 

[bart]

So does this mean since Datu Hartman was a student of GM Presas he should give credit to the Saavedras?

How did you come up with that? You missed the flow of ideas.

Bear with me and allow me to create a hypothetical situation. Imagine that Tim begins training a guy named Vinny DeLucia in 1986. For 10 years they train together under Remy, but Tim is no doubt senior to Vinny. Then Vinny's son Tony starts training mainly under Vinny and sometimes with Tim and rarely with Remy. A few years go by and GM Presas passes away and Vinny sticks with Tim. Vinny and Tony keep training for 20 or so years until Tim passes away. 10 years later Vinny passes away and then 10 years later in 2041, Tony DeLucia decides that he wants to have his own organization. In an advertisement he calls his style "DeLucia Modern Arnis based on the teachings of Remy Presas". Is he wrong in making that claim? I don't think so. Is there any truth to it? Yes, there is SOME truth to it. Is it the whole truth, NO.

To answer your question though, should he give credit to the Saavedras? No, he doesn't have to, but I don't think he could be faulted if he did, because there is some truth to it, especially if Tim studied and worked specifically on things that Remy identified as being taught by the Saavedras and tailored his personal style to fit along those lines. Not that he hasn't, but in the light of that question Tim might want to give credit to the Marangas, Mongcal, Bacon, or some others in the Balintawak group as well as the Saavedras.

 

[Red Blade]

How did you come up with that?

Hartman was a student of Presas.

Presas was a student of Bacon.

Bacon was a student of the Saavedras.

 

[Red Blade]

I understand tracing and giving credit for their roots but, I was of the understanding that Balintawak was related to Doce Pares and not that same art.

I doesn't make sense to me claiming Balintawak as your art and not giving credit to it's founder.

The Saavedras did Doce Pares and Bacon did Balintawak.

 

[Red Blade]

For the record, if GM Atillio is in my are for a seminar I would go see him.

 

[bart]

For the record, if GM Atillio is in my are for a seminar I would go see him.

Your profile doesn't say. Where exactly are you?

 

[Red Blade]

Metro Chicago.

 

[bart]

What we have here is a failure to communicate.
-Cool Hand Luke

Hartman was a student of Presas.
Presas was a student of Bacon.
Bacon was a student of the Saavedras.

I understood how you got that part. Hartman's link to the Saavedras is there if he wanted to use it.

I understand tracing and giving credit for their roots but, I was of the understanding that Balintawak was related to Doce Pares and not that same art.
I doesn't make sense to me claiming Balintawak as your art and not giving credit to it's founder.

Yes, Balintawak and Doce Pares are related and yes they are not the same. But at one point in time they were. Balintawak grew out of Doce Pares and then became something of its own later on as it developed. Doce Pares and Balintawak were also both originally more clubs than styles and within each there is a great variety of personal expression. In the years since the split, Doce Pares and Balintawak have developed as well and new styles grew, in many different directions, out of both groups.

As for why he would still claim Balintawak, I posted about that earlier and my opinion is still the same.

 

[Red Blade]

Let's try something a little different.

When was Balintawak formed?

 

[Cruentus]

How did you come up with that? You missed the flow of ideas.

Bear with me and allow me to create a hypothetical situation. Imagine that Tim begins training a guy named Vinny DeLucia in 1986. For 10 years they train together under Remy, but Tim is no doubt senior to Vinny. Then Vinny's son Tony starts training mainly under Vinny and sometimes with Tim and rarely with Remy. A few years go by and GM Presas passes away and Vinny sticks with Tim. Vinny and Tony keep training for 20 or so years until Tim passes away. 10 years later Vinny passes away and then 10 years later in 2041, Tony DeLucia decides that he wants to have his own organization. In an advertisement he calls his style "DeLucia Modern Arnis based on the teachings of Remy Presas". Is he wrong in making that claim? I don't think so. Is there any truth to it? Yes, there is SOME truth to it. Is it the whole truth, NO.

To answer your question though, should he give credit to the Saavedras? No, he doesn't have to, but I don't think he could be faulted if he did, because there is some truth to it, especially if Tim studied and worked specifically on things that Remy identified as being taught by the Saavedras and tailored his personal style to fit along those lines. Not that he hasn't, but in the light of that question Tim might want to give credit to the Marangas, Mongcal, Bacon, or some others in the Balintawak group as well as the Saavedras.

No offense Bart, but I disagree with your logic here.

For one, he isn't just saying "My system is based off Saavadre's methods," He is bypassing Anciong altogether and saying he learned from Saavadre's himself, and his dad who learned from Saavadre's also. Yet, he is calling his art Balintawak, which is Anciong's art. Also, it is clear that Doce Pares, old and new (as led by Canete family today), is a stick and dagger art, while Balintawak is just stick. Atillo's art is also just stick.

But, hey...WTF? I am starting my own system up tomorrow. I'll call it Modern Arnis, but based off the Saavadre method. Then, the next part of my plan will be to build up storys about how Remy Presas wasn't really my instructor, and that I beat him single cane. No problem...know Why? Because Remy P. trained with Moncol, Maranga, and Anciong, and Anciong trained with Saavadre's.
Sound Stupid? It should. Sounds like I am trying to by-pass the creator of Modern Arnis to make myself more credable? You bet.

Bottom line....the family tree for Balintawak begins with Anciong, not Saavadre. Anciong had formulated his own single stick method, despite who taught him, creating a new art. To claim the man's art but not give him credit is not only illogical, but it's disrespectful to those of us who are alive and studying the art, and to the old mans grave.

I hope I am not being too harsh here, Bart. I understand what you are saying, and I respect your opinion. However, as I said in my last post, this is a case of a "fish" that has gotten too big. We can try to use faulty logic to justify the man (and his students) behavior, or we can be realistic, and try to come up with a solution to the problem.

I am chosing to be realistic. And, I hope, that Atillo and his guys choose to look for solutions to the problem, because false logic won't solve anything.

PAUL

 

[loki09789]

Red Blade,

Your bio just says FMA/JKD, I was curious who your intel sources might be and where you are training in Bk? Which JKD affiliation are you with?

I started with Bobby Taboada a while ago, but had to stop for education and deployment reasons. I know that the majority here are Ted Buot students, but wasn't sure for you since JKD is geographically more common on the west coast and in NYC.

I did post this before, but I think it got lost in the rapid hits that were going on at the same time.