Question for Dan ranks or equivalent Re: what is

[Cirdan]

Hmm. Thank you for telling me what my intent was. And what I am building as well.

The reality is I am asking questions about what separates a martial art from what is not a martial art.

I am seeking objective answers.

The difference between green and purple with regard to how pretty something is.... Is entirely subjective.

Do you believe that there are no objective answers to be had?

Do you feel or think that there are only subjective answers to the question of what separates a martial art from what is not a martial art?

You are not looking for answers or trying to understand anything here, just making silly labels "MA" and "not MA" that you can comfortably slap on things. Basically you are doing the mistake that is refered to in the third quote of my signature.

Actually I am going to put you on ignore since I think your intentions with this thread are less than sincere. Todeloo

 

[Tez3]

Ah gentlemen I think you will soon be joining me in the abyss of TSD Texan ignore list. Pull up a chair and have a beer!

 

[pgsmith]

Do you feel or think that there are only subjective answers to the question of what separates a martial art from what is not a martial art?

Absolutely true. It is a subjective question, so there can be no objective answer. People can present arguments backing up their opinion, but there are no facts involved in either the question or the answer.

Personally, I don't really care much what other people consider a martial art, or whether they feel like my interpretive dancing is good on the battlefield or not.

 

[Cirdan]

Ah gentlemen I think you will soon be joining me in the abyss of TSD Texan ignore list. Pull up a chair and have a beer!

Splendid idea, a viking needs his mead after a long week, it is friday after all. Let us invite those two valkyries over for a horn of drink too!

 

[TSDTexan]

You are not looking for answers or trying to understand anything here, just making silly labels "MA" and "not MA" that you can comfortably slap on things. Basically you are doing the mistake that is refered to in the third quote of my signature.

Actually I am going to put you on ignore since I think your intentions with this thread are less than sincere. Todeloo

Now that this guy has me on ignore, where it now unlikely he will read my response... I will answer his question directly.

What do I think a martial art is?

This is an imperfect answer, because I am not yet satisfied with it. It is still in process... Having stated this qualification, here goes.

A martial art is a systematic framework of concepts, principles and applications thereof for the purpose of securing and maintaining life, health and wellbeing (both phisical and mental) through through the means of preparing the human body, spirit and mind to mount offensive attacks or defensive actions, to the end of preserving the life of one's self or others, and if required, the crippling or destruction of an aggressors' will and/or means of inflicting harm or injury, with as much force as may be required to achieve that end.

 

[elder999]

A martial art is a systematic framework of concepts, principles and applications thereof for the purpose of securing and maintaining life, health and wellbeing (both phisical and mental) through through the means of preparing the human body, spirit and mind to mount offensive attacks or defensive actions, to the end of preserving the life of one's self or others, and if required, the crippling or destruction of an aggressors' will and/or means of inflicting harm or injury, with as much force as may be required to achieve that end.

That's a martial craft, not art.

 

[TSDTexan]

That's a martial craft, not art.

A quibble appears:
Response follows:

1. Type google.com and enter search term "define art"

The 4th entry for usage of the word "art" states:

a skill at doing a specified thing, typically one acquired through practice.
"the art of conversation"

The practice is found in the clause "preparing the human body, spirit and mind to mount offensive attacks or defensive actions".

 

[Tez3]

Now that this guy has me on ignore, where it now unlikely he will read my response... I will answer his question directly.

What do I think a martial art is?

This is an imperfect answer, because I am not yet satisfied with it. It is still in process... Having stated this qualification, here goes.

A martial art is a systematic framework of concepts, principles and applications thereof for the purpose of securing and maintaining life, health and wellbeing (both phisical and mental) through through the means of preparing the human body, spirit and mind to mount offensive attacks or defensive actions, to the end of preserving the life of one's self or others, and if required, the crippling or destruction of an aggressors' will and/or means of inflicting harm or injury, with as much force as may be required to achieve that end.

I'm sure I've read that somewhere else, I wish I could remember, I think it's time for some Google Fu.

 

[Tez3]

Still looking but found this essay on defining martial arts, this I think is perhaps a better basis for discussion.
The Challenge of Defining A Martial Art

 

[TSDTexan]

Sorry but I'm with Tez on this one, I am struggling to understand how you would see dance [in general] as closer to MA than Taebo...?
The only time I had a concern with Taebo was not re Taebo itself, which is great for getting a sweat on, but when a mate of mine was doing it and thought he has somehow being equiped with fight skills/training. He really thought the loose fight moves were going to serve him in a fight. I was worried he was going to try and use it and get pasted, he could be a bit silly and a hot head sometimes and let people work him up while at concerts/gigs etc and would say "I'm going to blast that guy behind me with my elbows". "Cardio-combat" when taken for what it is meant to be is great but when certain people doing it let themselves go into la-la land, well...but that said, there are plenty of people doing MAs who are also completely deluding themselves as to what they think their art is equiping them with and what their capabilities are - plenty of those people about...

Well, my context for dancing being closer to a martial art then Taebo.... Is found in my handpicked quote. But I will narrow it down.

" I am comfortable with the reality that my students may actually use the art they are learning. The same cannot be said about the students of most teachers that embrace a strictly classical approach.

Many classical martial traditions in Japan are now just pretty dancing. It is so sad. They have not adapted their techniques to address modern realities. They cling only to antiquated forms and, in this process, often neglect the concepts which form a particular traditions core. "

But I am with you on the fantasy martial arts guys... I know of a fellah who was taking a karate by mail course. He would take written exams and mail them in with his checks. After five years, he tells me at work while delivering some pizza to us... Hey I just got my black belt in karate.

I said to him, what style of Karate-Do?
He rattled of some name I never heard of.
I asked him about his Sensei.
He said "I don't really know him"
He ran off before I could say anything.

The next time I saw him, his front grill was missing a lot of teeth. Apparently, he got mugged on a carryout by two thugs, and when he tried to fight, they beat the snot outta him.

 

[TSDTexan]

Still looking but found this essay on defining martial arts, this I think is perhaps a better basis for discussion.
The Challenge of Defining A Martial Art

You are going to be looking for a while, its the first time I posted that on the internet. But it has been my answer for about 10 years when students ask me.

I am still trying to formulate a better one.

I have taken you off my ignore list. It has been twenty four hours. Consider this a gentle nudge. I would hate to have to ignore you for 72 hours next time.

 

[elder999]

A quibble appears:
Response follows:

1. Type google.com and enter search term "define art"

The 4th entry for usage of the word "art" states:

a skill at doing a specified thing, typically one acquired through practice.
"the art of conversation"

The practice is found in the clause "preparing the human body, spirit and mind to mount offensive attacks or defensive actions".

Not a "quibble."'

In fact, your reply is pretty much a "fail."

Art-never mind the 4th usage of the word (really???):

From the Merriam-Webster English Language Technical Manual (that's engineerspeak for "dictionary")

the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

"art." it's a word. Words have meaning.

The difference, then, between art and craft, is that craft is what can be taught, while art is an individual expression.

I could teach you the craft of knifemaking, but it wouldn't be art until it became an individual creative expression. You'ld be making knives in a style similar to mine, using the techniques I taught you, but until you'd internalized all that and used it to fashion an individual expression of creativity-it wouldn't be art.

Likewise, I can teach you martial craft, but until it becomes an individual creative expression, it's not "art."

People have seen this, but they often don't know that this is precisely what it means:

So, to recap: what you've described is "craft", not art.

If you knew what art was-martial art, you wouldn't bother with the question or the distinction.......

Of course, you've asked a question-no guarantee that you'll like-or even understand the answers.....

move along, move along, and maybe shut up and train.

 

[TSDTexan]

Not a "quibble."'

In fact, your reply is pretty much a "fail."

Art-never mind the 4th usage of the word (really???):

From the Merriam-Webster English Language Technical Manual (that's engineerspeak for "dictionary")

the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

"art." it's a word. Words have meaning.

The difference, then, between art and craft, is that craft is what can be taught, while art is an individual expression.

I could teach you the craft of knifemaking, but it wouldn't be art until it became an individual creative expression. You'ld be making knives in a style similar to mine, using the techniques I taught you, but until you'd internalized all that and used it to fashion an individual expression of creativity-it wouldn't be art.

Likewise, I can teach you martial craft, but until it becomes an individual creative expression, it's not "art."

People have seen this, but they often don't know that this is precisely what it means:

So, to recap: what you've described is "craft", not art.

If you knew what art was-martial art, you wouldn't bother with the question or the distinction.......

move along, move along, and maybe shut up and train.

Pretty offensive there mate.
Telling people to shut up is an escalation.
I might have to put you in time out, in my ignore corner, like Tez3. If you wanna tell folks to shut up.

And yes.. Its a quibble. Trivial at best, because it disproves nothing that I said. Your response is subjective, as is everyone else's.

Furthermore, most folks dont refer to themselves as martial crafter's, or say I am am beginning to study a martial craft.

No, they say. Oh, I am a martial artist. Or He studies a martial art.

Poop dude. Seriously trivial poop.

Common usage of terms, and common sense both pooped on your notion dude.

In other words... Yours is just an opinion. Again, like everyone elses'.
Deal with it, or dont.

 

[elder999]

Pretty offensive there mate.
Telling people to shut up is an escalation.
I might have to put you in time out like Tez3.
And yes.. Its a quibble. Your response is subjective, as is everyone else's.

Furthermore, most folks dont refer to the selves as martial crafter's, or say I am am beginning to study a martial craft.

Common usage of terms, and common sense both pooped on your notion dude.

In other words... Yours is just an opinion. Again, like everyone elses'.
Deal with it, or dont.

"Irony, " thy name is "TSDTexan."

...........just

 

[TSDTexan]

"Irony, " thy name is "TSDTexan."

...........just

Glad, I can make you smile or laugh.
Its one of the few joys I have in life.

 

[TSDTexan]

You are creating a false dichotomy. Emulation is inserperable from innovation. Both are art. You divide into two steps something that I see as always naturally having occurred.as one.

 

[geezer]

What do I think a martial art is?

A martial art is a systematic framework of concepts, principles and applications thereof for the purpose of securing and maintaining life, health and wellbeing (both phisical and mental) through through the means of preparing the human body, spirit and mind to mount offensive attacks or defensive actions, to the end of preserving the life of one's self or others, and if required, the crippling or destruction of an aggressors' will and/or means of inflicting harm or injury, with as much force as may be required to achieve that end.

So you initiated this whole sophomoric discussion leading up to this, and hoping we'd be impressed? ...OK it is actually a pretty good definition for the practice of law in the United States these days, ....but as a definition for martial arts, I'd say it's bombastic twaddle.

 

[elder999]

....but as a definition for martial arts, I'd say it's bombastic twaddle.

QFT.

and so I could repeat "bombastic twaddle."

 

[TSDTexan]

So you initiated this whole sophomoric discussion leading up to this, and hoping we'd be impressed? ...OK it is actually a pretty good definition for the practice of law in the United States these days, ....but as a definition for martial arts, I'd say it's bombastic twaddle.

Smh
Impugned motivations. Not the first time, I have always been easily misunderstood. I never came to impress anyone.
Anonymous folks dont get the recognition they deserve, if it should come to pass that they merit such recognition. Which is why I chose an anonymous handle. I didn't come here to get my ego stroked, you jerk.


Thank you for your input on my definition. You think you got a better one? Shoot. Bang it out.

 

[Tez3]

I have taken you off my ignore list. It has been twenty four hours. Consider this a gentle nudge. I would hate to have to ignore you for 72 hours next time.

You have a very high opinion of yourself if you actually believe I care whether you read what I write or not. I hate to break it to you but it only amuses me that a man runs way from a few words he doesn't like.

Emulation is inserperable from innovation

I'm pretty sure this isn't true! I find 'inserpable' things to be quite unique.

Calling someone a jerk is insulting and shows you no intent to discourse either with courtesy or without thinking yours is the only opinion that matters. To borrow an American expression 'wake up and smell the coffee man'. You've had answers from very experienced and knowledgeable martial artists, yet you treat them with disdain and even insults. You really can't expect me or anyone else for that matter to take your muddled words seriously. Yes they are muddled, it's a sort of cod 'academic' English with random phrases made of words that you think sound good.
I'm not insulting you before you rant, I'm describing your posts. I think 'bombastic twaddle' is an excellent description by the way, that's exactly what it is.
Now if you don't mind put me back on ignore, I'm enjoying a few beers with Cirdan and we have beers waiting for all those you will now put on ignore.