"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Juany118]

Not Augustine, but Francis. Inosanto has spent a lot of time with Francis Fong and studied at one point with Moy Yat. And I agree. I think Inosanto likely has a very good understanding of Wing Chun and what it can and can't do.

The only thing I would say is this. I know the video being discussed very well. He is discussing how you can't understand JKD without understanding Wing Chun. He also admits that he left WC behind some time ago and then came back to it, interning it wasnt to long ago.

First let me preface I have HUGE respect for Guro Dan. He is the father of the Kali System I also study. That said,

First, in the video he never actually says WC has not outside game. He hedges and says (paraphrase) "for longer ranges maybe another structure would work BETTER.". The key word is better. Think of some of the sideways stances you see from other systems, one could argue they are better for outside fighting BUT that's not the same as saying WC has NO outside fighting.

Second for 40 years he has operated, been trained and trained others with the idea that WC was "improved" upon by Bruce Lee first with Jun Fan and then JKD. While I personally believe Guro Inosanto's passion right now lies more with the arts of South East Asia (he seems to focus his personal seminars on these arts of late) he has worked with, Silat, Kali etc, how easy would it be to say today "you know what? I now think my best friend and teacher was wrong and that WC has a decent outside game."

That is why I think it very telling that he says "maybe another structure will be BETTER" vs saying "WC just doesn't have it."

 

[Juany118]

I disagree that there is any sweet spot that is worth differentiating from other positions. Either you can hit or you cannot. "Trapping" range, punching range, kicking range- why make these artificial distinctions? What is "trapping", and what differentiates it from regular hitting?

That's fine. I will admit I am taught in a "combatives" manner, which means practical real world application vs theory. So in that range you can use all of our tools for striking low kicks, knees, elbows, palms, fists. Our defense is also stronger, vs striking, because being that close virtually forces the opponent to strike along the line where our defense is most potent.

Edit: again this doesn't mean I only use this range, only that every art has a place where it is strongest. There is no art I know of that is equal in all circumstances.

 

[Hazardi172]

I will admit I am taught in a "combatives" manner, which means practical real world application vs theory. So in that range you can use all of our tools for striking low kicks, knees, elbows, palms, fists.

The main tool in VT is the punch. If you can punch then why do anything else?

Our defense is also stronger, vs striking, because being that close virtually forces the opponent to strike along the line where our defense is most potent.

I don't think that standing in front of a striking opponent is a good idea. What is the line where your defense is most potent?

 

[Juany118]

The main tool in VT is the punch. If you can punch then why do anything else?



I don't think that standing in front of a striking opponent is a good idea. What is the line where your defense is most potent?

On the first, because you need to attack as the fight dictates. Sometimes a punch isn't as practical. Maybe they have a tight defense to the punch at the moment and a kick to the knee will end the fight right there. Maybe your body position means that the elbow has an immediate opening that can be exploited.

That all said I find that line of thought weird. At one point you said it's about the punch. I used that comment as part of an argument and you said "we can kick too." Now you are back to the punch?

As for the last, my WC actually says to always try and fight on the "blind side" so you tell me little I do not know.

The thing is though in close, whether on a flank or center to center, the number of effective angles of attack get more limited. It's simply not as easy to launch effective attacks around a guard because it can be more difficult to get your mass behind a round punch. Additionally kicks need to be launched lower and thus it becomes an issue of hitting the right target as much as power as the power of the kick is often less.

These are the little things that testing against other martial arts systems teaches you.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hmmm....

Personally, I don't believe that a martial system is a way to fight. Rather, it is a way to train, and the training results in fighting skills. But how you actually fight, can be just about anything. The way in which you apply and utilize what you have trained, is up to you and cannot be dictated by system stylistics.

But that's my opinion, and sometimes I'm a bit Hippie-Dippie.

 

[Hazardi172]

On the first, because you need to attack as the fight dictates. Sometimes a punch isn't as practical. Maybe they have a tight defense to the punch at the moment and a kick to the knee will end the fight right there. Maybe your body position means that the elbow has an immediate opening that can be exploited.

That all said I find that line of thought weird. At one point you said it's about the punch. I used that comment as part of an argument and you said "we can kick too." Now you are back to the punch?

Able to punch? Punch. Not able to punch? Make a way to punch. Out of position/bad position? Recover position.

Kicking fits where it fits.

The thing is though in close, whether on a flank or center to center, the number of effective angles of attack get more limited. It's simply not as easy to launch effective attacks around a guard because it can be more difficult to get your mass behind a round punch. Additionally kicks need to be launched lower and thus it becomes an issue of hitting the right target as much as power as the power of the kick is often less

The VT punch is straight. VT kicks are low. I still don't know what trapping is, or what the line of most potent defense is? Please let me know if you can describe.

These are the little things that testing against other martial arts systems teaches you.

Testing is a basic and central part of the learning process.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's okay. I kind of set myself up for this. LOL

What, by asking a question in the WC forum?

I disagree that there is any sweet spot that is worth differentiating from other positions. Either you can hit or you cannot. "Trapping" range, punching range, kicking range- why make these artificial distinctions? What is "trapping", and what differentiates it from regular hitting?

Where you can hit most effectively and with most options is that sweet spot.

 

[Hazardi172]

Where you can hit most effectively and with most options is that sweet spot.

No such place exists because staying in one place means one cannot hit effectively and retain options. Distance must always vary in fighting for any number of reasons.

 

[KPM]

he has worked with, Silat, Kali etc, how easy would it be to say today "you know what? I now think my best friend and teacher was wrong and that WC has a decent outside game."

Yeah, at this point it would be very easy for him to say that. But he didn't.

 

[KPM]

Hmmm....

Personally, I don't believe that a martial system is a way to fight. Rather, it is a way to train, and the training results in fighting skills. But how you actually fight, can be just about anything. The way in which you apply and utilize what you have trained, is up to you and cannot be dictated by system stylistics.

But that's my opinion, and sometimes I'm a bit Hippie-Dippie.

A very key idea in military training is that one should fight the way they train and train the way they fight. To not do that is to be inefficient. So if what you say above is true, it is simply an indicator of how far traditional martial arts have departed from their combative roots.

 

[wingchun100]

A very key idea in military training is that one should fight the way they train and train the way they fight. To not do that is to be inefficient. So if what you say above is true, it is simply an indicator of how far traditional martial arts have departed from their combative roots.

I have seen many martial arts schools where they will practice a self-defense application, but then the person defending stops their punch about an inch (sometimes more) away from their training partner. Those are schools I choose to not train in.

Maybe it is because we live in a litigious society. I still can't believe though, that people would join a martial arts class and not expect to get hit. I mean, it's going to happen out on the street...except there, the person who hit you won't stop to apologize like they do in class!

 

[yak sao]

A very key idea in military training is that one should fight the way they train and train the way they fight. To not do that is to be inefficient. So if what you say above is true, it is simply an indicator of how far traditional martial arts have departed from their combative roots.

I think that these 2 ideas are not necessarily opposed to one another.
While I wholeheartedly agree that our response in a stressful encounter is going to revert back to the lowest common denominator of our training, in other words, the things that.happen automatically because we've practiced it thousands of times; there comes a point where our body just moves naturally as a result of our training, seeking the most economical solution to the problem.

 

[wingchun100]

Well I answered it, though perhaps not in the way you expected. I currently study one form of WC, studied another some time ago (I actually had to make some changes to the SLT I used to practice on moving to the new school). Both of them teach me that WC has an outside game. Since the premise of the OP is something I can't relate to I noted where I see the main gap being.

Honestly, I can't relate to it either. This whole thread was sort of a "devil's advocate" kind of thing, really. As in, "Let's say we agreed. What would fill the gap?"

 

[wingchun100]

I disagree that there is any sweet spot that is worth differentiating from other positions. Either you can hit or you cannot. "Trapping" range, punching range, kicking range- why make these artificial distinctions? What is "trapping", and what differentiates it from regular hitting?

Trapping isn't hitting. It's more like blocking.

 

[Flying Crane]

A very key idea in military training is that one should fight the way they train and train the way they fight. To not do that is to be inefficient. So if what you say above is true, it is simply an indicator of how far traditional martial arts have departed from their combative roots.

That's an interesting opinion.

It actually is fighting the way you train. Though perhaps a bit more abstract than some might present it.

 

[Juany118]

Yeah, at this point it would be very easy for him to say that. But he didn't.

I know he didn't, but he didn't say WC has no outside game either. And that was the OPs point, the complete lack of an outside game. I will never say WC has the best outside game, that would be just silly. All I am saying is that Guro Dan's words infer an outside game exists, he just believes that other structure are better.

So my point is, if we are talking about a matter of degrees, then aren't we better served, if hybriding is your goal, to look for the biggest gap to be filled?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No such place exists because staying in one place means one cannot hit effectively and retain options. Distance must always vary in fighting for any number of reasons.

Nobody - literally nobody - said anything about staying in one place.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have seen many martial arts schools where they will practice a self-defense application, but then the person defending stops their punch about an inch (sometimes more) away from their training partner. Those are schools I choose to not train in.

Maybe it is because we live in a litigious society. I still can't believe though, that people would join a martial arts class and not expect to get hit. I mean, it's going to happen out on the street...except there, the person who hit you won't stop to apologize like they do in class!

That's a fine practice for beginners. I get a bit annoyed when someone gives me an attack shy of contact now.

 

[wingchun100]

That's a fine practice for beginners. I get a bit annoyed when someone gives me an attack shy of contact now.

Yes, I can see that. At advanced level though, it is a bit ridiculous.

 

[wingchun100]

Nobody - literally nobody - said anything about staying in one place.

Not here anyway, although someone must have said it somewhere.

The reason I say that is because I just watched a video of an MMA fight where a Wing Chun guy got grounded and pounded bloody in less than a minute...because he basically just stood there while his opponent rushed him.

I wish we could get some decent representation in MMA. I mean, personally I know the system is worth studying, but damn it would be nice to have at least ONE champion! lol