"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Gerry Seymour]

Not here anyway, although someone must have said it somewhere.

The reason I say that is because I just watched a video of an MMA fight where a Wing Chun guy got grounded and pounded bloody in less than a minute...because he basically just stood there while his opponent rushed him.

I wish we could get some decent representation in MMA. I mean, personally I know the system is worth studying, but damn it would be nice to have at least ONE champion! lol

There's a common issue with the idea that every good system would show up in MMA. MMA requires a certain mindset (a competitive one), that isn't what attracts everyone to MA. Some styles simply don't attract the kinds of folks who are well suited to MMA.

 

[wingchun100]

There's a common issue with the idea that every good system would show up in MMA. MMA requires a certain mindset (a competitive one), that isn't what attracts everyone to MA. Some styles simply don't attract the kinds of folks who are well suited to MMA.

I hear you, but really? Out of the countless people who train in Wing Chun, it has drawn NO competitive people?

 

[Juany118]

No such place exists because staying in one place means one cannot hit effectively and retain options. Distance must always vary in fighting for any number of reasons.

Who said anything about staying in one place? I am wondering if you are honestly not understanding the concept of a sweet spot or being purposefully obtuse? Look at it like a punch. All targets have "sweet spots", places where a punch has maximum effect. The existence of this sweet spot however doesn't mean that you only punch the sweet spots. If the sweet spot isn't available you do what you have to do. This fact of fighting doesn't make the sweet spot cease to exist however.

The same applies to ranging during fighting. Yes as the fight progresses you may find yourself dancing between ranges. This fact, again, doesn't mean the sweet spot ceases to exist.

 

[Juany118]

Honestly, I can't relate to it either. This whole thread was sort of a "devil's advocate" kind of thing, really. As in, "Let's say we agreed. What would fill the gap?"

Ah I see.

Trapping isn't hitting. It's more like blocking.

Yeah, trapping is sometimes seen as a close cousin of Chin-Na and sometimes goes so far as a very quick standing grappling.

 

[wingchun100]

Ah I see.



Yeah, trapping is sometimes seen as a close cousin of Chin-Na and sometimes goes so far as a very quick standing grappling.

Well, trapping is even faster than Chin-Na (in my opinion) because in trapping we don't latch on or grab hold. Our hands merely touch the opponent so we can block their attack AND know where their energy is going.

 

[Juany118]

A very key idea in military training is that one should fight the way they train and train the way they fight. To not do that is to be inefficient. So if what you say above is true, it is simply an indicator of how far traditional martial arts have departed from their combative roots.

I have to agree on this point, to an extent. My last response will clarify the "extent" bit.

I have seen many martial arts schools where they will practice a self-defense application, but then the person defending stops their punch about an inch (sometimes more) away from their training partner. Those are schools I choose to not train in.

Maybe it is because we live in a litigious society. I still can't believe though, that people would join a martial arts class and not expect to get hit. I mean, it's going to happen out on the street...except there, the person who hit you won't stop to apologize like they do in class!

Well I see a place for stopping short with new students from both sides. The new student attacking likely doesn't know how to use speed without full power yet. The one defending doesn't have the reactions or the ability to maintain the proper structure needed for a solid defense.

I think that these 2 ideas are not necessarily opposed to one another.
While I wholeheartedly agree that our response in a stressful encounter is going to revert back to the lowest common denominator of our training, in other words, the things that.happen automatically because we've practiced it thousands of times; there comes a point where our body just moves naturally as a result of our training, seeking the most economical solution to the problem.

It all depends on the final part. Do you "close" the deal with pressure testing. There will never come a point where you move naturally through the techniques of your training without some sort of pressure testing and it's actually a scientific fact that has undergone a lot of study lately. This Is Your Brain On War

A SUMMARY for those who don't want to read the whole article.

fight or flight kicks in the heart rate climbs due to a hormonal dump. The heart rate soars and the higher it gets the more fine motor skills, and thus many TMA techniques, go right out the window. The only way to stop this is a few things.

1. Control your breathing. You can call it "tactical breathing", dantian breathing etc. If you do this during moments of stress it actually helps to keep your heart rate down but you have to practice this breathing under stress, even if it's just while doing your daily run. When you start this it will actually hurt because it's not what your body wants to do naturally. Train it.

2. Figure out how to turn fear into something else. Fear will actually exacerbate the physiological response of fight or flight. If you can turn it into anger, focus, even compassion, loyalty to a cause. The last two may seem odd but compassion for a victim can be the reason the fire fighter runs into the burning build and still can use his gear properly, even with that bulky bunker gear. Loyalty to a cause? Think of soldier after soldier who in the wars of old laid down their rifle to pick up the Flag and Battle Standard to guide the marching of their unit.

The article covers other issues BUT if you do not pressure test you don't build tools equally important to the drilled techniques, the resistance to the inescapable effects of fight or flight.

 

[Juany118]

Well, trapping is even faster than Chin-Na (in my opinion) because in trapping we don't latch on or grab hold. Our hands merely touch the opponent so we can block their attack AND know where their energy is going.

That is why I called it a "cousin". What you describe here is what I call a "picture perfect" trap. Sometimes though you may need to do full on laap da, even if but a moment, because you can see your opponent will be able to circle your trap. I am not talking full on locks or anything like that for trapping, just that quick laap to make sure the hand stays there and disengage it almost as soon as your strike is launched. I train with some squirrely SOBs and sometimes a simple gum sau isn't quite enough .

 

[Dylan9d]

A very key idea in military training is that one should fight the way they train and train the way they fight. To not do that is to be inefficient. So if what you say above is true, it is simply an indicator of how far traditional martial arts have departed from their combative roots.

I think the part that I highlighted in the quote is the main thing in any style or system, if you can't do that than what's the point of training it.

 

[Hazardi172]

Nobody - literally nobody - said anything about staying in one place.

Then again, no such place exists

 

[Hazardi172]

A very key idea in military training is that one should fight the way they train and train the way they fight. To not do that is to be inefficient. So if what you say above is true, it is simply an indicator of how far traditional martial arts have departed from their combative roots.

VT fist builds the body, movement, habits and reactions so that one fights as VT. Without long training this is impossible, since VT is difficult.

When this is achieved then testing is a required next step.

 

[Hazardi172]

Who said anything about staying in one place? I am wondering if you are honestly not understanding the concept of a sweet spot or being purposefully obtuse? Look at it like a punch. All targets have "sweet spots", places where a punch has maximum effect. The existence of this sweet spot however doesn't mean that you only punch the sweet spots. If the sweet spot isn't available you do what you have to do. This fact of fighting doesn't make the sweet spot cease to exist however.

The same applies to ranging during fighting. Yes as the fight progresses you may find yourself dancing between ranges. This fact, again, doesn't mean the sweet spot ceases to exist.

The best place to stand in order to attack the opponent varies depending upon what the opponent is doing. There is no sweet spot better than all others because in fighting things change always.

 

[Hazardi172]

Yeah, trapping is sometimes seen as a close cousin of Chin-Na and sometimes goes so far as a very quick standing grappling.

Should I assume that standup grappling is the aim of your wing chun? This is something new to me.

 

[Hazardi172]

Well, trapping is even faster than Chin-Na (in my opinion) because in trapping we don't latch on or grab hold. Our hands merely touch the opponent so we can block their attack AND know where their energy is going.

Why not just hit them instead?

 

[Juany118]

Should I assume that standup grappling is the aim of your wing chun? This is something new to me.

The term actually doesn't come from my current WC, it comes from Gary Lam's. It just seemed to be the most simple reason to explain the idea of trapping. That by pressure, you remove a limb from the game opening the path to strike.

 

[Juany118]

Then again, no such place exists

Sorry, I am going to be blunt but leave it at this. Then you do not understand what a place is in a real fight. Every place has a greater or lesser purpose. The good fighter knows where their greatest strength lies. They of course adapt and go where the fight forces them to go, but in a fight each fighter is seeking their sweet spot.

A kicker is trying to stay at kicking range. A boxer where he can get maximum effect of his punches alone. A person who can punch elbow and kick wants to be in that sweet spot. It's a chess game, trying to see who can get control of their optimum range. Sometimes you need to settle because the opponent has initiative. That doesn't mean the place that is your sweet spot ceases to exist, it only means reality dictated you can't get there at the moment.

This is what is sometimes called real life/3d combat vs theory in the school.

 

[Dylan9d]

Should I assume that standup grappling is the aim of your wing chun? This is something new to me.

You haven't trained anything other than Ving Tsun? If not I would recommend looking further than your nose length.

Why not just hit them instead?

You can't always hit, I would refer to your first remark, try clinching with a kickboxer/muay thay guy, hell even we Silat guys can bring a mean clinch, from which we won't let you hit.

This is what is sometimes called real life/3d combat vs theory in the school.

 

[Transk53]

I hear you, but really? Out of the countless people who train in Wing Chun, it has drawn NO competitive people?

Probably have. But I would venture that other arts are a focus as well, as apposed to someone who is happy just to practice WC as a life thing.

 

[Juany118]

You can't always hit, I would refer to your first remark, try clinching with a kickboxer/muay thay guy, hell even we Silat guys can bring a mean clinch, from which we won't let you hit.

I would only say that in the clinch, I can knee. If I can't punch you are eating my elbow. That is my WC if not his. Beyond that at the same time I think we are speaking similar language because I don't only study Wing Chun, I also speak Guro Inosanto's Kali, which includes Silat, Kali, Kuntao etc. Thing is while my Kali has a "closer game" no debate on that. Just want to point all Wing Chun doesn't have the same rules.

 

[Dylan9d]

I would only say that in the clinch, I can knee. If I can't punch you are eating my elbow. That is my WC if not his. Beyond that at the same time I think we are speaking similar language because I don't only study Wing Chun, I also speak Guro Inosanto's Kali, which includes Silat, Kali, Kuntao etc. Thing is while my Kali has a "closer game" no debate on that. Just want to point all Wing Chun doesn't have the same rules.

Well people always think that VT is the superior art for close in fighting they forget about alot of other styles, like Kali/Eskrima/Arnis and Silat/Pukulan. We won't use our hands that much close in but we will elbows

 

[Hazardi172]

The term actually doesn't come from my current WC, it comes from Gary Lam's. It just seemed to be the most simple reason to explain the idea of trapping. That by pressure, you remove a limb from the game opening the path to strike.

Opening a path to hit is VT that I am familiar with. Opening a path to grapple is not so much.