"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
992
I just realized how far from the original question this thread has gotten LOL.

It started with me asking, "If we take it as an indisputable fact that wing chun has no outside game, and learning another art is necessary to fill that gap, then what long-range (by that I mean KICKING) style would be a good match with it?"

That question was never answered, although it WAS briefly addressed when someone asked why I thought tae kwon do was out.

I answered it.
 
OP
wingchun100

wingchun100

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
3,300
Reaction score
525
Location
Troy NY
I'm not so sure Steve. I think it may be a simple matter of "your" WC not having an "outside" game (ie kicking)...which, I note, you did not specify in your OP but added to this post.
You should ask your Sifu to teach you some of WC's 'outside game/kicking' methods...?
Just my .02.....but haven't had much coffee yet this morning. :)

I wasn't talking about the lineage I'm learning. I was talking about a blanket statement made by Dan Inosanto in a video, and I thought to myself, "If I were to assume that's true, what style would best fill the gap?"

Anyone who has learned past the first form has kicking in their Wing Chun. I don't know any lineages that teach Chum Kiu without kicks.
 

Vajramusti

Master Black Belt
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
312
Inosanto and his mentor Lee have/had very limited knowledge of wing chun to make that comment on wing chun's "outside game".
 
OP
wingchun100

wingchun100

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
3,300
Reaction score
525
Location
Troy NY
Inosanto and his mentor Lee have/had very limited knowledge of wing chun to make that comment on wing chun's "outside game".

Yes, but they aren't the only ones to have said it.

And not for nothing, but many people have said (about many different styles) that no one system has all the answers.

Therefore, I think it was a perfectly reasonable question to ask. And not for nothing, but talking about what they did or did not know still doesn't address the thread's question. LOL
 
OP
wingchun100

wingchun100

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
3,300
Reaction score
525
Location
Troy NY
Also, in the same video, Dan Inosanto talks about how he has trained with a wide variety of Wing Chun people. (The only name I remember him dropping is Augustine Fong.) In other words, he still has that opinion of the system even after heavy exposure to it.
 

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
992
Also, in the same video, Dan Inosanto talks about how he has trained with a wide variety of Wing Chun people. (The only name I remember him dropping is Augustine Fong.) In other words, he still has that opinion of the system even after heavy exposure to it.

Not Augustine, but Francis. Inosanto has spent a lot of time with Francis Fong and studied at one point with Moy Yat. And I agree. I think Inosanto likely has a very good understanding of Wing Chun and what it can and can't do.
 
OP
wingchun100

wingchun100

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
3,300
Reaction score
525
Location
Troy NY
Not Augustine, but Francis. Inosanto has spent a lot of time with Francis Fong and studied at one point with Moy Yat. And I agree. I think Inosanto likely has a very good understanding of Wing Chun and what it can and can't do.

Right. Well, it's been a while since I saw that video. Plus I have Augustine on the brain because that is who my current teacher learned from.
 

Hazardi172

Blue Belt
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Messages
218
Reaction score
36
It started with me asking, "If we take it as an indisputable fact that wing chun has no outside game, and learning another art is necessary to fill that gap, then what long-range (by that I mean KICKING) style would be a good match with it?"

I don't agree that VT lacks anything in terms of standing striking. It has an outside game. Adding kicks from TKD or some other system would not be possible because it has a completely different approach.
 

Hazardi172

Blue Belt
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Messages
218
Reaction score
36
[If you realize that it is a training drill then your previous comment is not comprehensible in terms of the conversation up to this point

---Sorry Guy. I meant that we are all familiar with your viewpoint by now.

I think you have me confused with someone else.

I am asking what is trapping range. You are answering that it is the distance between 2 people doing the bong laap drill. I don't see what relevance this has to fighting?

---And I answered about trapping range. It has been explained now more than once.

Your answer so far is that trapping range is a place you stand in order to do direct fighting applications of the Laap Sau drill. Ok
 
OP
wingchun100

wingchun100

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
3,300
Reaction score
525
Location
Troy NY
I don't agree that VT lacks anything in terms of standing striking. It has an outside game. Adding kicks from TKD or some other system would not be possible because it has a completely different approach.

I never said Wing Chun lacked anything in terms of standing striking. I never even said I AGREE that it lacks outside game. All I said was, "Let's say that was the truth. What long-range system COULD be added to fill the gap?"
 

Hazardi172

Blue Belt
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Messages
218
Reaction score
36
I never said Wing Chun lacked anything in terms of standing striking. I never even said I AGREE that it lacks outside game. All I said was, "Let's say that was the truth. What long-range system COULD be added to fill the gap?"

None
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
14,041
Reaction score
4,488
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
I just can't think of a system that would integrate well with VT for kicking
If your opponent wants to punch you, he has to put weight on his leading leg, at that particular moment, if you sweep, or low roundhouse kick at his leading leg, you can interrupt his forward attack.

You don't have to integrate a MA system into WC. You can just integrate a "strategy" into WC. That "strategy" can be as simple as "Not to let your opponent to put enough weight on his leading leg".
 

Vajramusti

Master Black Belt
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
312
Right. Well, it's been a while since I saw that video. Plus I have Augustine on the brain because that is who my current teacher learned from.
----------------------------------------------
Who is your current teacher?
 
OP
wingchun100

wingchun100

Senior Master
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
3,300
Reaction score
525
Location
Troy NY
----------------------------------------------
Who is your current teacher?

I'm kind of homeless right now. I mean, I train with a Sifu, but in his words, I don't "represent" him at this point. We haven't trained together long. In the past I trained with Russ Cichon, who is from the Ip Ching lineage.
 

Juany118

Senior Master
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
3,107
Reaction score
1,053
I think Juany and KPM are talking about doing applications of the Laap Sau drill at a particular "trapping range"

Since you are unfamiliar with wing chun (?), I will talk directly to those two, rather than talking to you about your interpretation of what they are trying to say to avoid confusion. No offence, just don't want to get bogged down in endless chat

No we weren't. We were simply noting a reference point in relation to the original point. The idea of applying laap da was used to further illustrate this reference point. Though admittedly some WC systems do trap in such a manner to facilitate a strike, that wasn't the original point of mentioning it . I even specifically mentioned that I was never taught that terminology in my WC training. I simply find it useful as a reference point in discussions like this.

All fighting is fluid as you say but every fighting system I know has a "sweet" spot. That sweet spot for WC/VT is what was referred to alternately as trapping range, elbow range and laap da range. A sweet spot doesn't mean you can't fight in other ranges, other positions. Yes we can kick, yes we can punch, we can use clever footwork to dance between such ranges but there is still that "sweet" spot.
 
Last edited:

Juany118

Senior Master
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
3,107
Reaction score
1,053
I just realized how far from the original question this thread has gotten LOL.

It started with me asking, "If we take it as an indisputable fact that wing chun has no outside game, and learning another art is necessary to fill that gap, then what long-range (by that I mean KICKING) style would be a good match with it?"

That question was never answered, although it WAS briefly addressed when someone asked why I thought tae kwon do was out.

Well I answered it, though perhaps not in the way you expected. I currently study one form of WC, studied another some time ago (I actually had to make some changes to the SLT I used to practice on moving to the new school). Both of them teach me that WC has an outside game. Since the premise of the OP is something I can't relate to I noted where I see the main gap being.
 

Hazardi172

Blue Belt
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Messages
218
Reaction score
36
No we weren't. We were simply noting a reference point in relation to the original point. The idea of applying laap da was used to further illustrate this reference point. Though admittedly some WC systems do trap in such a manner to facilitate a strike, that wasn't the original point of mentioning it .

All fighting is fluid as you say but every fighting system I know has a "sweet" spot. That sweet spot for WC/VT is what was referred to alternately as trapping range, elbow range and laap da range. A sweet spot doesn't mean you can't fight in other ranges, other positions. Yes we can kick, yes we can punch, we can use clever footwork to dance between such ranges but there is still that "sweet" spot.


I disagree that there is any sweet spot that is worth differentiating from other positions. Either you can hit or you cannot. "Trapping" range, punching range, kicking range- why make these artificial distinctions? What is "trapping", and what differentiates it from regular hitting?
 

Latest Discussions

Top