"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[O'Malley]

I usually call those "hand distance", "elbow distance", and "kissing distance".

During a seminar a couple of years ago, Kajukenbo SGM Angel García showed us three distances for the purpose of self-defense:

- correct distance: you're out of reach of the punch/stab so the attacker has to step in (guy can still kick but you're pretty ok)
- error distance: you're in range for a punch/stab
- stupidity distance: trapping/grabbing distance

His point being that you should be out of range when the guy decides to attack you, keeping you safeish while giving you more time to react and forcing the guy to step in to make contact (which makes him more vulnerable). When he attacks, you enter and chain blows/throws, keeping the pressure up until he's not a threat anymore.

He trained us to do the techniques also from "error distance" and "stupidity distance" but he said that if we're that close when feces hit the proverbial fan, we've made a mistake before.

 

[Juany118]

Gary Lam is Gary Lam wing chun, not WSL VT. His teacher was WSL, but he has added quite a lot of things I think.

Well, I'll just stick with what my Sifu, who studied under Gary Lam said, and what WSLVTNA 2017.

I would find it illogical that the Wong Shun Leung North America Organization would have someone that didn't teach WSLVT as a major participant/presenter. It is also illogical to turn around and say the name change matters. WSL said he taught YM VT BUT we call it WSLVT. Call me silly I like logical consistency.

 

[Juany118]

^^^ Exactly! Bruce Lee defined ranges as....Kicking range, punching range, trapping range, grappling range, and ground-fighting. Punching range is where an extended punch (like a karate reverse punch or a boxer's extended jab) can land. Trapping range is where a shorter punch (like a Wing Chun punch or boxer's hook/shovel hook/etc) can land and also where you can use typical Wing Chun tools like Pak, Tan, Lop, etc. to tie him up or "trap." Grappling range should probably really be called "clinching range." This is where you are body to body and can do sweeps, throws, takedowns, etc. Obviously one range can overlap with another. Another way to look at is it "long range", "medium range", and "close range....though most use this for weapons work. "Trapping" would be part of medium range.

First just wanted to comment on the last regarding weapon arts. In the Kali I also study, "trapping rage" is considered close range. In short if you can use your elbows on the enemy or control the elbow of the opponent you are "close". Now I admittedly study Inosanto Kali. The only other weapon form I studied was Foil and Saber Fencing where those range differences are far less relevant so other weapon heavy arts my define it differently

There is also bleed over to grappling range. Example, a Muay Thai Clinch is sometimes seen as "trapping range." Also in the video you can see how a takedown can be launched from trapping range. I think that at a certain point in the bleed over space between trapping and grappling the difference may be "what do you do?" If you strike it's trapping, if you takedown/restrain it becomes grappling.

 

[Juany118]

MA may have weakness but you don't need to have weakness. This is why your view should be beyond your MA style's view. A MA style can only give you so much. If something you can't get from your MA style, you can always get from somewhere else.

Hybrid art is just "cross training".

I agree with you entirely. The thing is some people may feel they don't have the time to "cross train". Now I do, but that is due to 2 factors. 1 my school teaches two arts in parallel in such a way as to avoid confusion in terms of techniques and I also previous studied formally, and still practice, two other arts. Without those dynamics I may say "don't have the time" and thus need to focus. /shrug

 

[Gerry Seymour]

During a seminar a couple of years ago, Kajukenbo SGM Angel García showed us three distances for the purpose of self-defense:

- correct distance: you're out of reach of the punch/stab so the attacker has to step in (guy can still kick but you're pretty ok)
- error distance: you're in range for a punch/stab
- stupidity distance: trapping/grabbing distance

His point being that you should be out of range when the guy decides to attack you, keeping you safeish while giving you more time to react and forcing the guy to step in to make contact (which makes him more vulnerable). When he attacks, you enter and chain blows/throws, keeping the pressure up until he's not a threat anymore.

He trained us to do the techniques also from "error distance" and "stupidity distance" but he said that if we're that close when feces hit the proverbial fan, we've made a mistake before.

What he terms "correct distance" is what I usually refer to as "safe distance", for the same reasons you note. Inside that distance, you'd better be dismantling them.

 

[drop bear]

During a seminar a couple of years ago, Kajukenbo SGM Angel García showed us three distances for the purpose of self-defense:

- correct distance: you're out of reach of the punch/stab so the attacker has to step in (guy can still kick but you're pretty ok)
- error distance: you're in range for a punch/stab
- stupidity distance: trapping/grabbing distance

His point being that you should be out of range when the guy decides to attack you, keeping you safeish while giving you more time to react and forcing the guy to step in to make contact (which makes him more vulnerable). When he attacks, you enter and chain blows/throws, keeping the pressure up until he's not a threat anymore.

He trained us to do the techniques also from "error distance" and "stupidity distance" but he said that if we're that close when feces hit the proverbial fan, we've made a mistake before.

Yeah the reactionary gap. It is most of your defense. All the blocking and anti takedown stuff just supplements that.

 

[Juany118]

Did some editing to seperate points...

That said, back to the original point. While just demonstration...

So maybe I just had bizarre luck. I studied two forms of WC, both claiming YM descent, both with an outside game. Could these be the only two? Maybe, like I said maybe bizarre luck, it happens . That said the outside game isn't the focus of course, a lot more work is done "inside".

Thing is it's there because all the theory in the world about getting into close range sometimes fails and you are stuck outside. Your options then are to have an outside game or no game. Could these be modifications of YM WC by two of the better known living Wing Chun Sigungs? Sure, but really that is kinda to my point. I have never been a fan of universal statements on what a martial art, of such obvious variety, like Wing Chun has. So I won't say "Bob's" Wing Chun has an outside game, but I can say the one I study and the one I used to study do. /shrug.

 

[KPM]

This is a training drill. It is not fighting or something that is applied directly to fighting.

Thanks Guy. We all realize that.

 

[Juany118]

Thanks Guy. We all realize that.

Is it just me or does it seem odd to have a training drill that builds muscle memory that somehow, miraculously never sees an application even in part? Example on hand, lap da. I think the video I showed previously of a real fight with Sifu Jerry (not demo, training, drill, etc) where such a lap leads to a straight up KO shows its efficacy.

 

[Hazardi172]

Well, I'll just stick with what my Sifu, who studied under Gary Lam said, and what WSLVTNA 2017.

I would find it illogical that the Wong Shun Leung North America Organization would have someone that didn't teach WSLVT as a major participant/presenter

Nobody listed on the page you link to is teaching standard WSL VT. Both Gary Lam and WKL teach their own modified systems and openly acknowledge this.

 

[Hazardi172]

Thanks Guy. We all realize that.

If you realize that it is a training drill then your previous comment is not comprehensible in terms of the conversation up to this point:

You do a Lop Da? Technically that is a momentary "trap." You can't do that from an extended punching range as I described above. You can't do that if you are standing body-to-body with the opponent. It is something done in "trapping range."

Bong Sau to Lop Sau and punch. Phillip Bayer does it in every video I've ever seen of him.

I am asking what is trapping range. You are answering that it is the distance between 2 people doing the bong laap drill. I don't see what relevance this has to fighting?

 

[Juany118]

Nobody listed on the page you link to is teaching standard WSL VT. Both Gary Lam and WKL teach their own modified systems and openly acknowledge this.

Well first that's pretty arrogant and forces me to ask who defines "standard" WSLVT since he is dead, since apparently, according to you no one headlining the WSLVT NA gathering actually teaches WSLVT?

BTW I never said Gary Lam didn't add some of himself to WSLVT. In reality this is what, imo, all true Martial Artists must do. We are all different mentally, emotionally and physically. This will color what we use in practice and what we use in practice will color what we teach, with some a small degree with others a large degree. But who other than the dead in this case is to say "that is not consistent with my vision?"

 

[Juany118]

I am asking what is trapping range. You are answering that it is the distance between 2 people doing the bong laap drill. I don't see what relevance this has to fighting?

It has a huge relevance in fighting people irl. I showed that video to illustrate trapping range only. WC/VT spends a lot of time in there. The video, coincidentally, also shows what else can start in that range, grappling and takedowns. WC/VT vs another striker? This isn't a problem usually as the two parties just try to get to their preferred range to pound someone. However if your WC is only about punching and so you have to be there and you do that to someone with a strong grappling background you are looking for trouble unless you have trained for it.

This is actually one of the issues with much of the modern TMA, including WC/VT training I have spoken of previously. Many schools only train against "their" art and so they don't see the vulnerabilities their art can bring to the table. If you have to rely on an overall principle of an art that is single minded to overcome it's disadvantages it can end badly, or in this case look silly if you are just good at ground fighting... thanks @Kung Fu Wang for the gif btw, it made me howl.

.

 

[Hazardi172]

Well first that's pretty arrogant and forces me to ask who defines "standard" WSLVT since he is dead, since apparently, according to you no one headlining the WSLVT NA gathering actually teaches WSLVT?

They teach modified WSL VT, which is fine, but it has additions compared to the original system that WSL learned from Yip Man. I don't see how it is arrogant to say this- it is something that both Gary Lam and Wan Kam Leung acknowledge openly.

BTW I never said Gary Lam didn't add some of himself to WSLVT. In reality this is what, imo, all true Martial Artists must do. We are all different mentally, emotionally and physically. This will color what we use in practice and what we use in practice will color what we teach, with some a small degree with others a large degree

Changing the system is changing the system. GL has chosen to do this, some others have not. No big deal.

 

[Hazardi172]

It has a huge relevance in fighting people irl.

You have responded to a post intended for KPM. KPM is arguing that trapping range is part of a particular drill and implying that it has some relevance to fighting. In fighting we do not attempt to initiate the bong laap drill with our opponent.

I showed that video to illustrate trapping range only. WC/VT spends a lot of time in there. The video, coincidentally, also shows what else can start in that range, grappling and takedowns. WC/VT vs another striker? This isn't a problem usually as the two parties just try to get to their preferred range to pound someone

Again what is this trapping range? In fighting we move, we punch, we kick. The distance between two people who are fighting varies.

However if your WC is only about punching and so you have to be there and you do that to someone with a strong grappling background you are looking for trouble unless you have trained for it

Again I think quite a strange conception of how VT works.

 

[Hazardi172]

Many schools only train against "their" art and so they don't see the vulnerabilities their art can bring to the table.

I don't understand. The YM/WSL VT system has testing as a structured and integral part of the learning process.

 

[Juany118]

They teach modified WSL VT, which is fine, but it has additions compared to the original system that WSL learned from Yip Man. I don't see how it is arrogant to say this- it is something that both Gary Lam and Wan Kam Leung acknowledge openly.



Changing the system is changing the system. GL has chosen to do this, some others have not. No big deal.

The point is, in my experience with MA's, especially in this marketing driven age, you can't tell the person who changed things and admitted it from the one who doesn't admit it. I have at least watched a "student" of every first gen YM student "do their thing", at least in demo. As such we can never know who does what YM intended. This then carries down to someone like WSL. If all the other first gen YM students do things a little (or sometimes a lot different) but most say "this is what YM taught me" my brain just says I have to apply this "down the lane" and be suspect of anyone who claims the "true" version of whatever as they all end up being different, whether subtle or gross.

 

[Juany118]

You have responded to a post intended for KPM. KPM is arguing that trapping range is part of a particular drill and implying that it has some relevance to fighting. In fighting we do not attempt to initiate the bong laap drill with our opponent.



Again what is this trapping range? In fighting we move, we punch, we kick. The distance between two people who are fighting varies.



Again I think quite a strange conception of how VT works.

First I raised the trapping range issue, hence why I responded. It is a "danger zone" where both the striking game can be continued or the grappling game started. Hence why I mentioned it. Lap da is relevant here because that can be used in trapping range to start a grappling game if your WC lineage teaches it, or if you previously studied a grappling art. As an example in Gary Lam's concept you will primarily use it to trap and clear the way for striking, however it easily leads into a Judo takedown if you have that background. Hence the relevance in fighting.

NOTE: to me fighting is just that, fighting...on the street...against a random person as that is my career.

Trapping range is thus that range in between. You can strike or start grappling in the same space and so it is the danger zone and you need to be able to adapt and deal with two entirely different games, if your idea is to use it on "the street."

As for my conception of VT, I was only referring to your prior comment about it being a "punching" art. if you see it as more than that disregard the statement.

 

[Juany118]

I don't understand. The YM/WSL VT system has testing as a structured and integral part of the learning process.

But is your testing going full on (in a safe sparring fashion) against a Judoka? That is what I mean about "schools", different "schools of thought" in terms of martial arts. So the WC/VT practitioner faces the Judoka or Aikidoka, (my prior experience) or FMA, BJJ or MMA guy etc.

As an example. My brother-in-law is going for 3rd dan in TKD and I give him a big bother just using WC, when I get into the "sweet spot" aka trapping range illustrated in the video. Along the same vein I spar with a BJJ guy I work with. If I didn't have the Judo and Aikido background I do, once I got into that range he can grapple. I would have issues then because it's not as easy as "just dropping back to kicking range" when you get into that space where two opposite strengths combine.

 

[Juany118]

They teach modified WSL VT, which is fine, but it has additions compared to the original system that WSL learned from Yip Man. I don't see how it is arrogant to say this- it is something that both Gary Lam and Wan Kam Leung acknowledge openly.



Changing the system is changing the system. GL has chosen to do this, some others have not. No big deal.

On your first point you avoid the students of YM who say they didn't change the system. It is imo arrogant to say that only WSL did not change the system and yet it is different than that of YM's own sons. That is the source of the issue and so when you say "changing the system is changing the system" in some fundamental way we come back to the question"who change the YM system?" and again everything flows from that.

This is NOT to say the various systems don't work. Only that we can't know what YM actually taught because of the variations among his own first gen students. That then cascades through the students of those who studied directly under YM. It is a hopeless argument and to avoid political arguments I prefer the following...

"so and so studied under YM..." or WSL etc. "their WC works ergo unless the fundamental principles are broken it is YM WC" or WSL, because the nature of a personal expression (which any fighting system is) is that we bring a bit of ourselves to the table BUT the principles were taught to us by our teacher.