"No Outside Game," or Another Thread About Hybrid Arts

[Juany118]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wing Chun on steroids? Nonsense. Jun Fan & JKD- Bruce Lee's play and he left Hong Kong before going deeply into wing chun.
But what he did learn gave him a good start.

That was their words. I agree with you to an extent but I also understood what they meant.

In terms of their reasoning it was like this. They see the basic techniques and principles one will see up to a basic understanding Chum Kiu and this is the foundation of Jun Fan. Then they see the other things that Bruce added to this foundation. Now if Bruce had a full understanding would he have felt the need to add these other things on top of it? I won't pretend to know what would have gone through the mind of a person dead for 3 decades and more but that is how it looks apparently to those standing inside the Jun Fan/JKD bubble. They see the foundation not knowing the foundation is incomplete on it's own and then see what was layered on top.

 

[drop bear]

But I even know people who study Jun Fan and JKD and they say the curriculum is Wing Chun on steroids. (More though the Jun Fan though)

And note I am not saying Wing Chun has no room for improvement. Even the striking game can use some improvements. I am just saying focus on where the largest weakness is. Ground game and more importantly ground game defense.

Think of it like a house. Do you go about replacing floors in the living room when you find out the porch roof is about to collapse, or fix the porch?

If your striking is up to par then you have an easier time with grappling defence. Because at least you have one section than you can sit in and be ok at. BJJ for example gets away with sub par striking because their ground game is so good.

You want something to build off.

 

[Juany118]

If your striking is up to par then you have an easier time with grappling defence. Because at least you have one section than you can sit in and be ok at. BJJ for example gets away with sub par striking because their ground game is so good.

You want something to build off.

Oh I agree, to a point, I see a complication in Wing Chun. A lot of the striking, imo at least, is inside trapping range. Even though we have other techniques "further out" in the more typical striking ranges I have found that striking in trapping range can be effective against other styles because they simply aren't expecting it, it is often (not always) outside their comfort zone/experience.

The thing is though it's a two edged sword as you have a smaller margin for error when it comes to avoiding a ground game. It doesn't take much to go from trapping to grappling. So if Murphy comes along and taps you on the shoulder, or the other guy is an equally skilled striker but has a ground game, you can find yourself in trouble.

This isn't to say anything bad about WC, I find it to be not only logical but effective. It's just that all Martial arts have a weakness somewhere, it's a matter of prioritizing.

 

[drop bear]

Oh I agree, to a point, I see a complication in Wing Chun. A lot of the striking, imo at least, is inside trapping range. Even though we have other techniques "further out" in the more typical striking ranges I have found that striking in trapping range can be effective against other styles because they simply aren't expecting it, it is often (not always) outside their comfort zone/experience.

The thing is though it's a two edged sword as you have a smaller margin for error when it comes to avoiding a ground game. It doesn't take much to go from trapping to grappling. So if Murphy comes along and taps you on the shoulder, or the other guy is an equally skilled striker but has a ground game, you can find yourself in trouble.

This isn't to say anything bad about WC, I find it to be not only logical but effective. It's just that all Martial arts have a weakness somewhere, it's a matter of prioritizing.

Yeah but that is also the fault of the striking. No outside game means you have no takedown defence.

How do I defend a double leg?

 

[Juany118]

Yeah but that is also the fault of the striking. No outside game means you have no takedown defence.

How do I defend a double leg?

Simply because the preference is trapping range, doesn't mean the "outside game" isn't there. The thing is in a real life self defense situation the chances of you knowing what the other guy is capable of isn't really there. Example, sparring. He has gotten better but my brother-in-law is a TKD guy. If I get into trapping range with him I win. Conversely, I spar with a guy at work who is a BJJ guy. If I didn't have the Aikido and Judo to try and maintain the trapping game I would be staying "outside".

On the street though I might be dealing with a complete gumby, a boxer, an MMA guy or, like last year a couple times a high ranked college wrestler who thought his scholarship and medals made it so the "rules" didn't apply to him (he is now doing state time after he pulled a Cosby at a party). In a self defense situation you often wont have the opportunity to feel these things out and so, imo, you have two options. 1. Look at your art critically, find the biggest weakness, look for the most efficient way to plug that gap. 2. study the crap out of what you know and focus big time on the strengths to try and minimize the weaknesses.

 

[Juany118]

Late edit: as to my preference of the last two points, that is based solely on me. I chose 1 because my Sifu also has a background in grappling and teaches an art, in parallel with a strong grappling component that includes a ground game.

If I had simply walked in the door to a pure Wing Chun school with no prior experience I would likely focus on number 2 as it would be the most efficient under those particular circumstances.

 

[Hazardi172]

Oh I agree, to a point, I see a complication in Wing Chun. A lot of the striking, imo at least, is inside trapping range. Even though we have other techniques "further out" in the more typical striking ranges I have found that striking in trapping range can be effective against other styles because they simply aren't expecting it, it is often (not always) outside their comfort zone/experience.

The thing is though it's a two edged sword as you have a smaller margin for error when it comes to avoiding a ground game. It doesn't take much to go from trapping to grappling. So if Murphy comes along and taps you on the shoulder, or the other guy is an equally skilled striker but has a ground game, you can find yourself in trouble.

This isn't to say anything bad about WC, I find it to be not only logical but effective. It's just that all Martial arts have a weakness somewhere, it's a matter of prioritizing.

What is the trapping range?

 

[Juany118]

What is the trapping range?

The easiest way to explain it is to say between where you typically think of punching and when you start full on grappling.

This is just a link I found on the quick, and while only from a seminar of Gary Lam's, you are basically in a position where you can still strike, but close enough so that you can say control the opponent's arm to unbalance them, whether to open a way for you to strike, or to transition to takes downs etc. Hop to 1:00 to see what I mean by the range.

WC really doesn't define ranges the way some other MA do but I have found the term useful on occassion. Also I know other styles are capable of fighting at a similar range, just speaking to the importance in WC, in my experience.

 

[KPM]

^^^ Exactly! Bruce Lee defined ranges as....Kicking range, punching range, trapping range, grappling range, and ground-fighting. Punching range is where an extended punch (like a karate reverse punch or a boxer's extended jab) can land. Trapping range is where a shorter punch (like a Wing Chun punch or boxer's hook/shovel hook/etc) can land and also where you can use typical Wing Chun tools like Pak, Tan, Lop, etc. to tie him up or "trap." Grappling range should probably really be called "clinching range." This is where you are body to body and can do sweeps, throws, takedowns, etc. Obviously one range can overlap with another. Another way to look at is it "long range", "medium range", and "close range....though most use this for weapons work. "Trapping" would be part of medium range.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

^^^ Exactly! Bruce Lee defined ranges as....Kicking range, punching range, trapping range, grappling range, and ground-fighting. Punching range is where an extended punch (like a karate reverse punch or a boxer's extended jab) can land. Trapping range is where a shorter punch (like a Wing Chun punch or boxer's hook/shovel hook/etc) can land and also where you can use typical Wing Chun tools like Pak, Tan, Lop, etc. to tie him up or "trap." Grappling range should probably really be called "clinching range." This is where you are body to body and can do sweeps, throws, takedowns, etc. Obviously one range can overlap with another. Another way to look at is it "long range", "medium range", and "close range....though most use this for weapons work. "Trapping" would be part of medium range.

I usually call those "hand distance", "elbow distance", and "kissing distance".

 

[wayfaring]

^^^ Exactly! Bruce Lee defined ranges as....Kicking range, punching range, trapping range, grappling range, and ground-fighting. Punching range is where an extended punch (like a karate reverse punch or a boxer's extended jab) can land. Trapping range is where a shorter punch (like a Wing Chun punch or boxer's hook/shovel hook/etc) can land and also where you can use typical Wing Chun tools like Pak, Tan, Lop, etc. to tie him up or "trap." Grappling range should probably really be called "clinching range." This is where you are body to body and can do sweeps, throws, takedowns, etc. Obviously one range can overlap with another. Another way to look at is it "long range", "medium range", and "close range....though most use this for weapons work. "Trapping" would be part of medium range.

There are overlaps in punching, clinching, and trapping ranges.

I've found different arts have different strategies and aims in these overlapping ranges. This plays into the hybrid art discussion.

 

[Hazardi172]

The easiest way to explain it is to say between where you typically think of punching and when you start full on grappling.

I don't really understand- WSL Ving Tsun is mostly a punching style

 

[Hazardi172]

Trapping range is where a shorter punch (like a Wing Chun punch or boxer's hook/shovel hook/etc) can land and also where you can use typical Wing Chun tools like Pak, Tan, Lop, etc. to tie him up or "trap."

Another I don't really understand. In WSL VT the goal is to punch rather than to tie up. Pak is to help the punch. Laap is to regain position. As for Tan, well that is something really quite different in WSL VT!

 

[KPM]

Another I don't really understand. In WSL VT the goal is to punch rather than to tie up. Pak is to help the punch. Laap is to regain position. As for Tan, well that is something really quite different in WSL VT!

You do a Lop Da? Technically that is a momentary "trap." You can't do that from an extended punching range as I described above. You can't do that if you are standing body-to-body with the opponent. It is something done in "trapping range."

 

[Juany118]

I don't really understand- WSL Ving Tsun is mostly a punching style

First from some other debates we have discovered there really is no WSLVT. Some claim that PB is more pure but the video I showed is Gary Lam, also a WSLVT Sifu, who likes kicks too. With that said I really don't know how else to explain it, I thought the video was fairly self explanatory.

 

[Hazardi172]

You do a Lop Da? Technically that is a momentary "trap." You can't do that from an extended punching range as I described above. You can't do that if you are standing body-to-body with the opponent. It is something done in "trapping range."

Can you describe what is Lop Da please? I am not sure what you mean, sorry.

 

[Hazardi172]

First from some other debates we have discovered there really is no WSLVT. Some claim that PB is more pure but the video I showed is Gary Lam, also a WSLVT Sifu, who likes kicks too. With that said I really don't know how else to explain it, I thought the video was fairly self explanatory.

Gary Lam is Gary Lam wing chun, not WSL VT. His teacher was WSL, but he has added quite a lot of things I think.

 

[KPM]

Can you describe what is Lop Da please? I am not sure what you mean, sorry.

Bong Sau to Lop Sau and punch. Phillip Bayer does it in every video I've ever seen of him.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's just that all Martial arts have a weakness somewhere, it's a matter of prioritizing.

MA may have weakness but you don't need to have weakness. This is why your view should be beyond your MA style's view. A MA style can only give you so much. If something you can't get from your MA style, you can always get from somewhere else.

Hybrid art is just "cross training".

 

[Hazardi172]

Bong Sau to Lop Sau and punch. Phillip Bayer does it in every video I've ever seen of him.

This is a training drill. It is not fighting or something that is applied directly to fighting.