Ninjutsu vs Bjj (NAGA rules)

Discussion in 'Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling' started by Hanzou, Oct 9, 2018.

  1. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    First, I don't teach. I have run classes now and again in the past, but that's very different.

    But to the main point, yes, it was tongue in cheek, but you're spot on. BJJ is very pragmatic, as a style. I remember several years ago, Josh Barnett was fighting in pride. My coach mentioned he had good jiu jitsu. I said, "isn't he a catch wrestler?" Lol... The look i gotmwas priceless.
     
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  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Now this is the danger point for me. You have permission to "shake some sense into me" if I start talking about what a founder intended as a reason to not change things up.
     
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  3. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Sounds like Hanzou all day. lol.
     
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  4. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    This just remind me one day someone asked me, "Are you teaching Chinese Judo? Why did you cut the sleeves of your Judo Gi off?"
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    A good place to draw a line, my friend. I'm all for wondering what might have been intended. But using what I think was the intention, to stop me from doing what I find works....
     
  6. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yeah people are applauding kabibs jits at the moment as well
     
  7. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    My perspective is that Judo, BJJ, Sambo, and wrestling in its various forms are all just aspects of the same art. The apparent differences are just situational adaptations to different rulesets or superficial expressions of culture. The underlying principles are the same.
     
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  8. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Well if Rickson, Relson, and Rorian have their way, you'll soon be having Gjj as a separate entity to Bjj.
     
  9. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Not sure why. It will just follow the same path as Bjj
     
  10. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Boxing evolved because new people entered the sport and offered new tactics and methods. When certain people became dominant, other fighters adapted those methods into their training methodology. This made boxing a more effective and technical sport over time because there was an objective standard: Winning boxing matches. If a fighter's methodology failed, it along with the fighter was discarded. If the fighter's methodology was successful, others adopted the model yet also put their own spin on it based on their body type and individual talents.

    That is a far cry from having someone creating a fighting system and their disciples dogmatically attempting to adhere to the established fighting method. What's worse is that there's no objective standard to place it against, which further adds to its decay.

    I agree.

    While an interesting analogy, keep in mind that planes work via a standardized model. No one is building a workable plane with wings that flap like a bird for example, and all modern planes are using similar engines and turbines. Fighting works in a similar fashion. When broken down, all fighting looks like a MMA match at varying skill levels. I have yet to see someone break into a Crane Stance and start doing crane kung fu while someone is socking them in the face. Instead of making a plane with a flawed design, why not go with the working design and save time trying to reach your destination?

    Here's the question though: If we're not seeing modern fighters using this style, can we actually believe that the founder was actually some amazing fighter? It's like those stories of Ueshiba throwing people with his pinky, or Mas Oyama killing bulls with a reverse punch; Once held to a bit more scrutiny, it all becomes a big Asian fairy tale.
     
  11. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    No, Rickson and the boys want a return to old school GJJ. They feel that the sport aspect taking over and is diluting the original style that was more about street fighting and Vale Tudo.

    I agree with some of their arguments (the lack of standup coming from some Bjj schools is simply inexcusable), and I'm happy that my base in Bjj is within the GJJ sphere (Relson Gracie), but I can't help but think the REAL reason they're seeking to do this is because they're losing competitions to more sport-oriented schools.

    Edit:
    RICKSON GRACIE on How Jiu Jitsu is Losing its identity
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
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  12. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    This is what I've been saying all along. They improve what was already there. They didn't jump out of the system to adopt a Hung Ga punch because the boxing jab was no good. They improved on what was already there.

    I read this 5 times and I have no clue as to what you are talking about and how that applies to creating a fighting system nor my example of boxing.

    The fact that overall boxers only punch is exactly the text book example of adhering to an established fighting method and yet there is clear proof of it evolving.




     
  13. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Flapping flying machine that flys




     
  14. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    That isn't an airplane.
     
  15. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Yes, and they also changed what was there and removed things that didn't work or became outdated.

    I was talking about TMAs.

    The reason it evolved was because it had an objective standard: Winning boxing matches.
     
  16. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I guess they are still at it. Their predecessors never flew.
     
  17. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    You are right. It's an Ornithopter airplanes don't flap, never have. They are 2 different flying machines. One cannot be the other.
     
  18. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Wrong. The reason it evolved is because people were using the techniques and as a result learned how to make improvements on the existing techniques. Winning is just a by product of the improved techniques. Even if you took away the concept of winning those improvements would still happen. If an improvement on an existing technique allows you to be more effective at hitting the opponent more the earlier version of that same technique, then you are going to use that technique regardless of the concept of winning. Because the concept of boxing is to punch your opponent.
     
  19. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Wrong. Take the uppercut for example. The uppercut was introduced by Duth Sam in the early 1800s and he wrecked havoc in boxing until a new way was discovered to block it. Why create new devastating techniques? Why create new methods to stop these new devastating techniques? Because you want to win. There would be no reason to create an uppercut or the method to block the uppercut if that goal wasn't in place. Further, if boxing were structured like a TMA, such a new, devastating technique would have been rejected or ignored.
     
  20. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Yeah, and we were talking about planes. You know, flying machines that can carry loads of passengers and cargo over long distances.
     

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