Never done that before

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by skribs, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Guess what? I do! This isn't the whole model! I'm only showing a piece of it, and you're criticizing it as the whole thing!

    If you watch a boxing video and someone shows a tutorial on how to do a jab, do you say "you didn't do a cross, hook, or uppercut, or show any blocking or evasion skills, so your training model sucks."

    Like I said earlier, this is the Phylum level of the taxonomy.
    • Life - Martial Arts
    • Kingdom - Martial Arts Melee Weapons
    • Phylum - Stick, Blade, or Flail
    • Class - Axe, Hammer, Stick, Polearm
    • Order - Eskrima Stick, Tonfa, Staff, Cane, Umbrella
    • Family - Quarterstaff, Bo Staff, Jo Staff, Walking Stick
    • Genus - Fiberglass Bo Staff, Oak Bo Staff, Bamboo Bo Staff, Alluminum Bo Staff
    You're telling me that I'm not detailed enough, because you're critiquing a model you don't fully understand. And rather than trying to understand it better, you just say "it sucks."

    I'm not here to give a dissertation on every idea I come up with. Just an idea I came up with. For you to just take that idea and tell me "it's garbage" is just a low blow.
     
  2. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Categorizations are only useful if they simplify understanding. If they add layers of convolution they serve no purpose whatsoever, and in fact, work against their intended purpose.
     
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  3. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Given that every single thing you've said here is wrong, I'm just going to say you should either leave this to people who understand these weapons or go get some actual training with these weapons. Preferably the later, of course.
     
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  4. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    This is kind of the point I'm trying to make. Not that you would be an expert in something, but that you would be dangerous. Now, my experience tells me that most people who pick up nunchaku with no training, are more likely to hurt themselves than the other person. But, the physics involved in NOT hurting yourself, are the same for any flail.

    And maybe that's what I'm categorizing. Not necessarily how to hurt your opponent, but how to NOT hurt yourself. With a flail weapon, it's understanding how the physics of the chain or rope work. With a stick weapon, it's mostly just about having the spacial awareness to not hit yourself in the back of the head (which I've seen happen). With an edged weapon, there's the additional safety considerations that come into play with a sharp weapon.

    With that in mind, I still would categorize a lot of axes under "stick", because the edge by itself is not sharp. If you grab an ax head, you're not very likely to cut yourself, but if you grab the wrong part of a sword you will. Maybe some polearms would fit under the "edge" category and others more into the "stick" category.
     
  5. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Can you elaborate beyond "you're wrong"? Because I don't think I am.
     
  6. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    That's easy. Drop the weapon. Do something you understand.
     
  7. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't see how. Every single thing you said in that post was wrong. Ever.y Single. Thing. It's painfully obvious that you don't understand those weapons or how they're used. I understand what you're trying to do with your comparisons, but you don't have enough understanding to grasp WHY your categories are ludicrous. And that's why you don't think you're wrong.
     
  8. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I disagree, per my post above.

    And yes, some weapons you would be more likely than others to hurt yourself, without training.
     
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  9. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    And see, I think you're the one who doesn't understand. If you can't see how those things are connected, then the lack of understanding is on you, not me. And you can take that lack of understanding of my model, and you can ignore my model, attempt to correct my model, attempt to understand my model, or ridicule me. Only one of those is toxic behavior, and you have chosen that one.

    I'm not saying that each of those weapons is exactly the same. I'm saying a lot of the skills you use in the adjacent weapons will translate. I'm saying there's overlap. One Venn Diagram over another, where the techniques used by one weapon pass over into the next. There's a lot of skills that are unique to each, and a lot of skills that fit in that overlap.

    The problem is, that with everything having unique skills, and everything having overlap, wherever you draw a line, you're going to cut some of that overlap, and you're also going to have some of those unique flavors lumped into the category.

    I've come up with a model. It works for me. Variations of it work for other people I talk to about it. Everyone categorizes weapons in different ways. Mine is no less valid because you don't like it.
     
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  10. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Are you seriously saying I should stop training? Instead of suggesting I train more so I do understand?

    This is toxic gate-keeping behavior at its worst.
     
  11. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I would say the point is, get training for the weapons you have an interest in. However, if you need to grab a weapon in a pinch and use it, go for it.

    Hell, I’ll pick up just about anything and see what it’s about. But I’ve had some decent training in a variety of things, so none of it scares me. I just think they are cool.
     
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  12. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I'll repeat. If your biggest concern with a weapon is how to not hurt yourself, you're better off getting rid of the weapon.

    The difference is that I do know how to use the edged weapons you're talking about. That's why I know how utterly wrong you are. You don't know what you don't know. So you're convinced you're right.

    Check your reading. I started this off by saying 'leave it to people who understand them, or get some training. Preferably the latter.'

    This is reading comprehension at its worst. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It's actually reasonable, if you're just looking to classify by gross estimation of the movements used, which I think is what he intended. Use of brass knuckles will approximate (though not be quite the same as, in some cases) unarmed movement. If we include the "club" (stick with a weighted end) as part of the model for sticks, then a mace and axe both have some of that movement - again, only in a gross approximation, but that's good enough for rough categorization.
     
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  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That could be true if you depend upon the classification too much. But if you just use it as a conceptual guide, I don't see any danger in it. I can use some sticks like a sword (using cutting motions and sword blocks), and I know the limitations of that, so I don't expect it to perform like a sword. Other sticks can be used like a mace. So, I could draw a category wherever it usefully links things, without ever thinking everything in that category actually works the same way - I just know there are some similar principles that can be used, though perhaps to different effect.

    Realistically, saying an axe is like some sticks isn't more dangerous than classifying "swords" together - they can be easily as different (some even being a bit closer to an axe than a sword).
     
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  15. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    An axe..hmm you mean that thing with the huge blade on it that must be swing with a carefully aligned edge like a sword, and does cutting rather blunt force damage?
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    He did say if you know how to punch, you could learn to use a knuckle duster (not that you'd already know fully how to use it).

    Which, I think, is why he said if you can swing an axe, you can use a stick similarly, rather than the other way around. It would be useful for a stick that's of similar balance, and you'd no longer need to worry about alignment.

    If it were me, I'd have a "club" category, and most axes will have a bit of "blade" and a bit of "club" to them.

    He didn't say everything is the same about them. If you can do basic nunchuku work, some of that will, in fact, translate to a chain. It doesn't fully teach you to use a chain, but you've got a start on some of the work, and are likely better equipped than someone who just picks it up with no preparation, at all. Even better if you just take a couple of opportunities to see how a chain responds to some of the nunchuku movements.
     
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  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Allowing for nuance, grey areas, and cross-over (in other words, being okay with the inherent ambiguity), it makes reasonable sense to me. It's imperfect and words well enough for the purpose so long as the imperfection is understood.
     
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  18. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    So people shouldn't train gun safety? People shouldn't learn how to safely handle knives and other weapons? It's okay if you hit yourself with your nunchucks as long as you can also hit the other guy?

    I can say the same thing about you. So we're at an impasse. What I'm guessing is happening here is more likely that you don't understand the point I'm making, and instead of trying to discuss it, are just telling me I'm wrong.

    Then when I asked for advice, your only advice was for me to stop training.

    So you lump it with blades. Or you make it its own category. You do what makes sense you to. I lump it in with sticks and maces because the same swings you'd use with a hammer, you'd use with an ax.
     
  19. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    I think the issue is that people assume I'm talking about a training model, when in reality I'm just talking about a way of thinking about things.
     
  20. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    This is exactly the reason that it's dangerous to compare the two, and also why I disagree with @skribs assertion that knowing one weapon in a category will make you more competent at a different weapon than someone who does not know a weapon in the category.

    As an example; let's say that I know how to use a stick fairly well. And part of my training is to constantly move it around, in arcs, in front of me. This is fine, and should come in handy if I need to use a stick. But then me and someone with no stick-related training both pick up an axe. He swings it intuitively, and it's a benefit towards him. I remember being told it's similar to a stick, so start treating it like it's a stick. I'm not expecting the weight difference, and on the down slash in faster than expect, and I end up with a nice gash on my leg. That wouldn't have happened if I hadn't bothered thinking of an axe like a stick, and just tried to use it like an axe.123
     
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