Martial arts as defense on the streets

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by Gweilo, Jul 19, 2019.

  1. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    It . Matters very much if you going to make a legal point that it isn't self defence , there has to be a very specific form of words , so that both can be said to have agreed, and then having gone out side to " fight" either can change his mind , then that agreement is null and void and self defence can apply again
     
  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    self defense legally, is a defense against an assault charge.
     
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  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    How come?

    You are still defending yourself. He is still attacking you.
     
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    For my question, it doesn't matter. The law will have a definition (probably through case law) of what constitutes "consent". I don't get to define that. That's why I said, "Dunno." I'm guessing by your stalling that you don't, either, and that you really didn't know what you were talking about in the post that started this nonsense. I think this has run its course.
     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    By that definition, any time two people fight, it's self-defense. Not my definition.
     
  6. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    i see youve changed the word under consideration ( again) consent andagreement are not interchangeable words, but the legal definition of consent is pretty much established in most countries as being " informed" consent, that is you clearly know what you are consenting to and that's its consent with free will and that you can with drW that consent at any time.

    if someones says, letsstep outside and settle this argument man to man, its far from clear you have consented to a fight,
    if they say come outside and I'm punch your lights out, you clearly haven't given them consent to knock you out, it's not clear at all if you have given them consent to try and knock you out, all you've done it go outside, there's no agreement to fight.

    if they are very very clear about their intent and you verbally agree to fight them and go outside, then you can say after the first punch, I with draw my consent, then if it carries on, you are now defending them self's against an attack for which there is no consent.

    just as in an actual fight by consent in a licienced boxing ring, either party can quit when ever they want, if the other party continues there is no consent and what they are doing is assault, for which self defence is available to you
     
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  7. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    So this is by your personal definition of self defense. Not any sort of consensus.
     
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    We've talked about this before - there are a several generally accepted definitions that get used. I try to specify what my definition is to keep down misunderstandings. Nothing particularly special about mine - that's why I said including consensual fighting didn't fit my definition (rather than saying it's wrong, because there are others who'd probably include it in their definition, for just the reason you pointed out). It doesn't make much sense to me as a concept if we include consensual fighting, but I'm not the arbiter of "right".
     
  9. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    So not commenting on the legal definition or anything like that. But ive got a group of friends who engage (or used to engage) in a technically illegal boxing tournament, where they basically meet up in a parking lot, fight whoever their designated to fight that day, go to the hospital if needed, and at the end of the day go home till next time. Its a square off fight, not sanctioned by anyone, entirely voluntary. None of them would consider it self defense (again, ive no idea if legally it would be considered self defense or assault if any of them were ever arrested)
     
  10. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    It’s probably best to remember that things having to do with law vary from state to state, from country to country etc.
     
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  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yeah. You didn't clarify in that post it was a personal definition of self defense. Which has what got everyone trying to work out what the consensus was.

    Of course there isn't one. Which is why I describe it as a weasel word.
     
  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    So on the street with no rules and no ref and someone attacking you isn't considered self defense.
     
  13. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    There was technically a ref. Someone decided who won and who lost. But either way, both people agreed to attack each other. So while they're technically defending themselves, their also technically assaulting someone at the same time.
     
  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Well yeah. Technically they are both engaging in self defense.

    But otherwise yeah everyone is going to have their own definition. And that in itself changes the definition of self defense.
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You use that as a baiting term. That's far beneath you.
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That seems a stretch of his description - and seems purposely worded to lead the discussion.
     
  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    There are a handful of commonly used definitions. I don't think I've ever heard anyone include consensual fights (like boxing matches, whether sanctioned or not) in the self-defense concept. In your past statements, you quite clearly haven't. So what's your purpose in pushing hard for the inclusion now...or is it just you trying to get an argument out of the person who said it wasn't included??
     
  18. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I have a few time included unsanctioned boxing matches as self defense.

    And there are not a handful of commonly used definitions. There is no consensus on what the definition is.
     
  19. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    It doesn't matter if it does or doesn't.
     
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  20. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    This is what the term means.

    "Weasel words" are a colloquial term for words or phrases used to avoid being forthright. Weasel words are used when the speaker wants to make it seem like they've given a clear answer to a question or made a direct statement, when actually they've said something inconclusive or vague."

    So you can make a statement like. "most of those videos don't appear to be self-defense. They look like consensual fights." and it sounds definitive.

    But you are not using the dictionary description. You are not using the legal definition. You are using your personal definition or a handful of commonly used definitions.(which is meaningless in itself)

    And so a term seems definitive it is really meaningless.
     

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