Martial arts as defense on the streets

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by Gweilo, Jul 19, 2019.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, I know what "weasel word" means. And you're using it to bait. Because most folks use it NOT to avoid being forthright, but because the term works well for most folks having reasonable discussion with the intent of understanding each other, rather than the intent of baiting a discussion.

    It doesn't work for you, because you like that it doesn't work for you.
     
  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    You went from a pretty simple statement that didn't have your opinion attached to it.

    To of course saying that is not what you said. Or that is not what you meant or a common definition is.

    I mean what works well for most folks?

    Has anyone defined self defense yet?

    This discussion goes precisely how weasel words work.
    charmin.jpg
     
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  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You make the claim that people use it to avoid being honest. Yet many people have reasonable discussions about the concept/topic without such obvious baiting and acrimony. When they disagree about the definition, they either agree on a definition for the discussion or debate the reasons for their definition. I've never seen anyone use it to avoid honesty or purposely to confuse people. The differences in definitions are mostly nuance, so in most discussions what is/is not part of the definition is of minor significance.

    You like to make it a big deal and act like nobody knows what the concept is, simply because there's variation in the detail of the definition. But most people - yes, including you, though you won't admit it - know quite well what the concept is, and the only argument is about some of the edges of the topic.
     
  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I haven't seen this discussion where everyone agrees on your terms. Can you present that for me please.

    (Or where you agree to theirs)

    It seems that your definition is not based on anything. That's fine but it still doesn't make a consensus or a reasonable discussion about the topic.

    It also means that regardless of your personal beliefs. Everyone's definition is valid.

    Like discussing the meaning of happiness.

    I have seen people use it to avoid honesty and purposely confuse person.

    For example someone shows a video of a street fight as evidence of self defense and someone else claims that the evidence isn't really self defense.

    Which is how you started this piece.

    Otherwise. Here is Ian Abernathy using the vague definition of self defense to create a point that is pretty stupid.



    And this is designed so that someone who may not be a top tier fighter is able to stay relevant in the market.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2019
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  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Okay, so let me be blunt. You use self-defense as a weasel word. By that I mean you use it - intentionally - do derail discussions. Other people have reasonable discussions and debates around it, then you show up with your own agenda and hard bias and purposely derail those discussions. You appear to have no intention of actually getting somewhere useful with your hyperbole, because you don't suggest a different method of communication. You just stand on the side saying, "doesn't mean that, has no meaning, you can't use that word honestly."

    If you don't like the word, don't use it. Don't want others to use it, suggest a better better one. But I don't think you'll have much luck, since most folks seem to have little trouble having reasonable discussions using the common term.
     
  6. Gweilo

    Gweilo Brown Belt

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    That was a long discussion, @ gpseymour would you consider the fact, that if I was in a consensual fight, I am no longer using self defense?
    I think you were correct (I think it was you, but it was some time back in the thread) that jobo's quote on a verbal contract would not stand as a judge could not accept that a contract could be binding if it was perceived to be in connection with illegality, but does a consensual fight mean those involved waiver their right to a legal defense of self defense?
     
  7. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    the problem with this is there aren't many consensual fights, its tends that one is a lot keener on fighting than the other and he is just standing his ground/ declining to back down rather than consenting

    so a simple scenario for consideration. ( based on a real event) I'm walking down the canal and some seriously big bozo onbig mountain bike rides straight at me, I don' mov , he swerves at the last second skids to a haltit the side of me, I call him a stupid ****, he threats to punch me, i say try it mate and see what happens, he goes to dismount and, I hit him in the face with t?he contents of a fairly full fairly hot large costa full cream latte, and then knock hm of the bike, he gets back on and calls me names as he cycles off.

    did I consent to that " fight" or was I defending myself ? I could have moved out of his way, I could have apologised for inconvieniancing him, I could have retreated or just walked on, I could have waited to find out if he actually intended to punch me or was just trying to use his size to intimidated me
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
  8. Gweilo

    Gweilo Brown Belt

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    If you ask me, in my opinion you was the agressor, you initiated the fight, you struck first, in a court of law, you should be charged with assault. This has nothing to do with self defense.
     
  9. Gweilo

    Gweilo Brown Belt

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    Just to clarify, you took none of the steps in self defense, no avoidance or evasion, you went straight to destryour, there was no control.
     
  10. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    well no, that's not uk law, an assault has taken place when the other person has put you in fear of your safety, first by ridding at me, then by threaning violence, once that assault has occurred your allowed to defend yourself by striking first, there no requirement to mitigate or retreat or gve them first punch, those are issues to be considered by the court, but as long as they believe that you believed your safety was at risk then your fine
     
  11. Gweilo

    Gweilo Brown Belt

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    In your own words he swerved at the last minute, saying that in court I believe would put the blame squarely on you, you made no attempt to avoid, in fact you instigated it with your stupid **** quote, I can only hope you are not an instructor, especially children.
     
  12. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    no try reading, I said last second. that a heart beat away from being crashed into.

    as I've said there is no legal requirement to avoid a confrontation, no requirement to back down or retreat, and if they are being a stupid **** your allowed to tell them so

    I have passed my wisdom on to children being bullied, which is smack them in the nose very hard / before they hit you, and if possible reduce them to a bloodymess before someone breaks it up. which is a very sensible thing to do
     
  13. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    1i was stood out side the trafford centre with my "nephew " (and his dad,) id taken hm under my wing when he was 9 and being seriously bullied at school, he was 17 at this points and some guy walking past made a nasty comment about us smoking near the doorway, before I could speak he said, "talk to me like that you stupid fat bald **** and I'm slap you., " which is right out of my play book .he dad turned , smiled at me and said " your work here is done"
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2019
  14. Nuuli

    Nuuli White Belt

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    It can be depending on the circumstances. Let's say... Some obnoxious bloke insults you and challenges you to a fight. You in turn respond, assume a fighting stance and engage. That could be considered mutual consent. Same situation, bloke insults you, challenges you to a fight, but you keep walking. He continues and attacks, you react with your m.a. skills and overcome him. Second situation you defended yourself. This is over simplified. Fights can and are often considered consensual depending on the circumstances leading up to the event.
     
  15. Gweilo

    Gweilo Brown Belt

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    I do not think you would know sensible, if it crept up behind you and bit you on the **** IMHO. There are times you have to fight, there are times you avoid or de-escalate, if you stand up in court and say, I smashed his nose in, and threw my hot coffee on him, because he almost hit me with his bike, and I thought he was going to assault me, I think you may have a good chance of a fine, or even a bit of bird.
     
  16. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    considered by who and in what part of the world ?
     
  17. Gweilo

    Gweilo Brown Belt

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    Welcome to mt, you defend yourself in either situation, but when does it come within the legal bounds of self defense.
     
  18. Gweilo

    Gweilo Brown Belt

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    Let's assume I feel I have no escape, and my only exit is beyond this bloke, is this then a consensual fight?
     
  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It's a lot of the same skills (if we talk about self-defense as the act of actively defending against an attack, rather than prevention), but I wouldn't classify a consensual fight as self-defense. It's an arbitrary division in some ways, but I think most people make a similar distinction, because they are thinking of it conceptually.

    It's my understanding that in many jurisdictions there's no "self-defense" defense available against assault charges if you agreed to enter the fight. There's probably some limitation on that exclusion (if the other person pulls a knife, for instance).
     
  20. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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