Looking for something new

[Tarrycat]

Which is why in 20 years time you will still get manhandled by say a boxer or jittster who has been training for six months.

Even though you will have all these cool moves. You just never learn to really employ them.

Don't stress, same thing happened to me. Trained for ages then sparred some guys who wanted to put the pressure on and I turned to water. And had to reevaluate what was important to focus on.

Well, since a lot of what we do is Aikido-based (momentum; using the person's own weight against themselves), I doubt I would be man-handled in that sense... Unless of course I enter a boxing ring. Our techniques don't work with force. It's only successful for self-defense. It will be very difficult for me to properly attack someone twice or three times my size, using force. However, if they attack me, they do all the work for me. That's why people like Steven Seagal can get away with being less fit. He plays with them like rag dolls.

 

[drop bear]

Well, since a lot of what we do is Aikido-based (momentum; using the person's own weight against themselves), I doubt I would be man-handled in that sense... Unless of course I enter a boxing ring. Our techniques don't work with force. It's only successful for self-defense. It will be very difficult for me to properly attack someone twice or three times my size, using force. However, if they attack me, they do all the work for me. That's why people like Steven Seagal can get away with being less fit. He plays with them like rag dolls.

Does that really happen though?

I mean look if you wanted to train, have fun, learn stuff and meet new people then what you are suggesting is fine.

If you think you are learning some sort of skill that negates force without ever actually having to train against people who are seriously using force.

You are in for a bit of a shock.

I mean there are rules in a boxing ring but they don't suspend the laws of physics.

 

[Tarrycat]

Does that really happen though?

I mean look if you wanted to train, have fun, learn stuff and meet new people then what you are suggesting is fine.

If you think you are learning some sort of skill that negates force without ever actually having to train against people who are seriously using force.

You are in for a bit of a shock.

I mean there are rules in a boxing ring but they don't suspend the laws of physics.

I wasn't being serious about the Seagal comment... It just looks to me like he's fooling around with people in movies who attack him so aggressively. I haven't seen him fight in reality . But yes, most of our techniques are not based on force, as the technique fails when strength is introduced.

So, is Aikido to you not an effective martial art?... You make it seem like it's not.

Sure, reality may teach me some lessons. I am by no means a weak individual though. I used to bully boys in school, so I'm not necessarily a "fairy"...

I lift weights, I do cardio. But my strength isn't useful in what we do. My weight is, however.

It's very difficult to explain these things to people who aren't familiar with these arts or haven't physically trained long enough to understand the physics behind it. I'm pretty certain that when the Japanese invented these different styles & techniques, they considered the law of physics, otherwise it wouldn't have been effective & taught to begin with.

I can debate with you all day about this, but at the end of the day, I'm not the person who formulated these styles, I'm just practicing it. I don't have all the answers; I just know that most of what we do fails if you implement it overcome by aggression & force.

Most likely we will target a boxer's hands, hence their hands are protected most of the time. There are a lot of things we can do to defend ourselves, but there's not a lot we can do if we are driven by ego.

Martial Arts isn't all-explanatory. Some things you need to experience in order for you to comprehend it.

 

[Tarrycat]

Does that really happen though?

I mean look if you wanted to train, have fun, learn stuff and meet new people then what you are suggesting is fine.

If you think you are learning some sort of skill that negates force without ever actually having to train against people who are seriously using force.

You are in for a bit of a shock.

I mean there are rules in a boxing ring but they don't suspend the laws of physics.

I will never enter a boxing ring... Ninjutsu is not a sport. You can't compare boxing to Ma

You have a disagree from both ma_student and streetfighter2. Just wanted to point out something that I've noticed; the two of them, along with headhunter, tend to give the exact same responses to the exact same posts, and have similar writing styles. Either they are the same person, or they are three separate people who are so similar in their views that I view them as the same person. So when you end up with 3 disagrees from them on all your posts, I tend to view it as one disagree/dislike, not three.

Lol. I noticed...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It really doesn't. Either you go too easy. Turn to crap too quickly or spend too much time on the sidelines.

Okay, of those three, the first is not quality sparring (I should have kept that word in my reply - it is a valid distinction), and the third is not sparring during sparring time. The second will eventually resolve itself.

What essentially happens is you gain all these great technical skills and never find the means to employ them.

Wrestling is a great example. Because to avoid being taken down the willpower you put in to your defence has to be greater than the willpower they put in to their attack.

You can have great technical moves but they won't work if you are folded in half.

Agreed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The Richard Simmons work out might stave off heart disease if you ate right. But it will not create functional fighters.

Which isn’t relevant to the context of my post which was about “no time for fitness”. It doesn’t really matter whether that is RS fitness or Rocky Balboa fitness - there’s no separate time for either.

 

[drop bear]

Okay, of those three, the first is not quality sparring (I should have kept that word in my reply - it is a valid distinction), and the third is not sparring during sparring time. The second will eventually resolve itself.



Agreed.

Nice. Now have a chat to tarrycat. Cos I don't think she will get it coming from me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, since a lot of what we do is Aikido-based (momentum; using the person's own weight against themselves), I doubt I would be man-handled in that sense... Unless of course I enter a boxing ring. Our techniques don't work with force. It's only successful for self-defense. It will be very difficult for me to properly attack someone twice or three times my size, using force. However, if they attack me, they do all the work for me. That's why people like Steven Seagal can get away with being less fit. He plays with them like rag dolls.

If you are able to keep to Aikido responses, you are correct. However, dealing with someone with a grappling background, you will find those opportunities less plentiful. When someone provides effective resistance, your energy usage changes dramatically.

 

[MA_Student]

You have a disagree from both ma_student and streetfighter2. Just wanted to point out something that I've noticed; the two of them, along with headhunter, tend to give the exact same responses to the exact same posts, and have similar writing styles. Either they are the same person, or they are three separate people who are so similar in their views that I view them as the same person. So when you end up with 3 disagrees from them on all your posts, I tend to view it as one disagree/dislike, not three.

Oh yeah because I've made 3 accounts for this site right? Grow up I really don't care enough about this site for that maybe more than just 1 person disagrees with the post

 

[drop bear]

Oh yeah because I've made 3 accounts for this site right? Grow up I really don't care enough about this site for that maybe more than just 1 person disagrees with the post

Well we have never seen you and Donald trump in the same room together.

So I have my suspicions.

 

[MA_Student]

Well we have never seen you and Donald trump in the same room together.

So I have my suspicions.

Dammit been found out

 

[MA_Student]

I will never enter a boxing ring... Ninjutsu is not a sport. You can't compare boxing to Ma


Lol. I noticed...

Boxing Is a martial art just because it doesn't have belts or forms or any of that doesn't make it not a martial art. Kickboxing is a martial art, Muay Thai is a martial art, fencing is a martial art, mma is a martial art anything combat related is a martial art

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Oh yeah because I've made 3 accounts for this site right? Grow up I really don't care enough about this site for that maybe more than just 1 person disagrees with the post

Like I said, it's either that, or the three of you have incredibly similar views and read the same threads. I don't really care which one it is, doesn't effect me in the slightest.

 

[oftheherd1]

It is not the instructors job to get you into shape. His job is to teach you the methods of the system he teaches.

Granted, this is hard work and fitness is usually a side benefit of the training. But fitness is not his job.

Since so much of martial arts does seen to depend on physical fitness, I think it is in fact part of what has to be taught and followed up on. The two martial arts I studied, we mostly did that as part of warm ups, but we were critiqued on gross errors there as well. We had to keep improving. And in this, I think drop bear is correct to point out that if technique won't end the fight at the first aggressive move, the martial artist defending himself may not be able to sustain himself. So if a teacher notes that someone is unable to sustain himself, should he only tell the person to work out at home (which if not done well will affect his learning), or begin making him work out while training?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Since so much of martial arts does seen to depend on physical fitness, I think it is in fact part of what has to be taught and followed up on. The two martial arts I studied, we mostly did that as part of warm ups, but we were critiqued on gross errors there as well. We had to keep improving. And in this, I think drop bear is correct to point out that if technique won't end the fight at the first aggressive move, the martial artist defending himself may not be able to sustain himself. So if a teacher notes that someone is unable to sustain himself, should he only tell the person to work out at home (which if not done well will affect his learning), or begin making him work out while training?

I think there’s an assumption that the instructor is qualified to ensure good form. Most I know are actually not, and often use exercises that don’t fit what they are trying to accomplish. There are also issues of class size and divided attention for the instructor in smaller programs.

 

[jobo]

Since so much of martial arts does seen to depend on physical fitness, I think it is in fact part of what has to be taught and followed up on. The two martial arts I studied, we mostly did that as part of warm ups, but we were critiqued on gross errors there as well. We had to keep improving. And in this, I think drop bear is correct to point out that if technique won't end the fight at the first aggressive move, the martial artist defending himself may not be able to sustain himself. So if a teacher notes that someone is unable to sustain himself, should he only tell the person to work out at home (which if not done well will affect his learning), or begin making him work out while training?

i agree, a maist SHOULD have a degree of fitness greater than the average for his/ her age. But that seems not to be commonly the case? The attitude from instructors seems " not my problem" I'm teaching techneque not fitness, even though those techniques will be next to useless with out a reasonable level of fitness. But then they can do fitness but can't actually get them to work hard in exercise unless they want to.

and in some perhaps a lot of cases just coming and doing the,drills is significantly more exercise than they would do normally so fitness is improving.

people in my group who start struggling with low intensity exercise, keep saying" but your so fit/ strong" as if i have some unfair advantage over them, but I'm not fitter than them by accident, I'm fitter because i work on it

 

[oftheherd1]

I think there’s an assumption that the instructor is qualified to ensure good form. Most I know are actually not, and often use exercises that don’t fit what they are trying to accomplish. There are also issues of class size and divided attention for the instructor in smaller programs.

No doubt you have more experience than I do. I only know of the two arts I studied. There was no question of the teachers there knowing what worked best for that art, and it was what was taught/practiced.

 

[Tarrycat]

If you are able to keep to Aikido responses, you are correct. However, dealing with someone with a grappling background, you will find those opportunities less plentiful. When someone provides effective resistance, your energy usage changes dramatically.

We do grappling as well.

If you are able to keep to Aikido responses, you are correct. However, dealing with someone with a grappling background, you will find those opportunities less plentiful. When someone provides effective resistance, your energy usage changes dramatically.

Grappling is nothing new to us... In fact, it was one of the first technique divisions introduced to me. (Taijitsu - striking; grappling).

I 100% understand what you're saying though. They are two different arts entirely. It depends on the style of the attack.

Luckily we don't only focus on one style.

I will address grappling attacks tomorrow in class. Should be interesting!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

We do grappling as well.


Grappling is nothing new to us... In fact, it was one of the first technique divisions introduced to me. (Taijitsu - striking; grappling).

I 100% understand what you're saying though. They are two different arts entirely. It depends on the style of the attack.

Luckily we don't only focus on one style.

I will address grappling attacks tomorrow in class. Should be interesting!

There is a significant difference in how grappling is typically trained in the Takamatsuden arts (i.e. the Bujinkan and its offshoots) vs how they are trained in systems like Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, and Sombo.

In the Bujinkan, you generally have a training partner who feeds you a simple, specified, somewhat stylized attack (such as a lapel grab), then waits around compliantly as you break his balance and structure so that you can apply a grappling technique such as an arm lock or a throw.

In Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, Sombo, etc, you get to have training partners who actively, continually, and intelligently work to break your balance and structure so they can apply their techniques at the same time as they work to counter and pre-emptively shut down your techniques. They will anticipate your techniques and adapt to your movements.

The difference between the two experiences is night and day, even when the same physical principles or techniques are used.

 

[Tarrycat]

There is a significant difference in how grappling is typically trained in the Takamatsuden arts (i.e. the Bujinkan and its offshoots) vs how they are trained in systems like Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, and Sombo.

In the Bujinkan, you generally have a training partner who feeds you a simple, specified, somewhat stylized attack (such as a lapel grab), then waits around compliantly as you break his balance and structure so that you can apply a grappling technique such as an arm lock or a throw.

In Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, Sombo, etc, you get to have training partners who actively, continually, and intelligently work to break your balance and structure so they can apply their techniques at the same time as they work to counter and pre-emptively shut down your techniques. They will anticipate your techniques and adapt to your movements.

The difference between the two experiences is night and day, even when the same physical principles or techniques are used.

I can imagine how different they are. It isn't our primary focus. I would like to experience the Jiiujitsu grappling one day.

Isn't the main focus of Jiujitsu based on grappling? Or does it emphasize various other techniques as well? I'm not familiar with it. When I look at pictures, I always see the students wrestling & on the ground?

I once read one student saying that Brazilian Jiujitsu is superior to Japanese Jiujitsu.