Looking for something new

[oftheherd1]

Regarding the fitness and martial training conversation going on. IMO, when someone starts training in martial arts they are most likely training new muscles, training muscles differently or both. For example, I was a triathlete when I started Karate and was very fit. However; my body wasn't accustomed to working the muscles like we did in Karate, thus it was challenging to say the least. However; I didn't stop swimming biking nor running when I started Karate. I encountered the same thing when I started Kali, different muscle groups and different movement equal a great workout. Essentially different styles train different muscles differently, though there is some overlap. There are also universal things like not being overweight and being a non-smoker that makes working out easier regardless of the type of workout.

That being said. I do not solely rely on my instructor to give me an intense workout. I enjoy when he does(afterwards), and I walk away feeling refreshed. However; there is a point as martial artists that we should start practicing on our own. If I want a great workout but also need to work on kicks, then I'll go to open gym and do numerous kicking drills. The same goes for any other training aspects, punches, footwork, speed, power, etc. We have covered so many drills in practice that I feel I can do a solo drill to improve on most things I need to work on. Furthering as martial artist means acknowledging what we need to work on, learn how to work on it, then most importantly following through and work on it.

Though I'm not an instructor, I can understand the challenge of regarding fitness. The biggest challenge I can see with doing an intense workout every class are the students that can't handle it. If you have elderly, younger or very out of shape students, such workouts might be too taxing to their bodies. I've had a hard time with this in the past, looking down or judging students that in my mind at the time where "limiting class". I started to realize that not everyone is a able as I am, and I need to understand that from their point of view and the instructor's. Thus when I solo train I can go as intensely as I want.

Finding the proper training culture is the best thing you can do. That doesn't automatically mean Muay Thai or BJJ. It more so depends on the class and instructor themselves. Style has very little to do with it, training culture is everything

Well said I think. If a person is out of shape, or even in some way handicapped, and a teacher decides to take them on as students, I think there is an obligation to try and get them where they need to be physically. With some it won't be too difficult, with others it will be difficult, and with a few, it just won't be possible because of their handicap, or their lack of mental discipline.

I think teachers, by the time they are senior belted, should have learned from their teachers what exercises need to be emphasized for their art. If they want to make minor adjustments of adding things or taking away some things, that is just how different arts and styles develop.

For those of you who think it is a student's responsibility to train for fitness outside the school, that is your business. But I learned it differently, and although I haven't taught for a long time, when I did, I taught as I was taught. Fitness as well as technique taught in class. Especially in the Hapkido I learned, but nonetheless, also in Taekwondo.

 

[jobo]

Plenty of teachers are in need of their own fitness training and are in no position to give advice on the topic.

A martial arts teacher is not automatically a fitness guru. However, that doesn’t mean you can’t learn good martial arts from them.

I don’t read drop bears posts.

hmm, I've run this argument before, but it seems to apply, any sporting pass time you take up, will have a high element of fitness associated with it, with seemingly the exception of some ma, where it seems not to matter if the student is very unfit, they just teach the movies, take the money and see you next week.

those whose aim includes achieving health and fitness are being short changed, they may be far better of taking up netball or,step aerobics or swimming or 5 aside football or anything really that has the effect of challenging them.

it really doesn't need a guru, to do some body weight exercises, if the instructors fitness is lacking then they are not setting a good example to the class and should really take a good look at them selves

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is a significant difference in how grappling is typically trained in the Takamatsuden arts (i.e. the Bujinkan and its offshoots) vs how they are trained in systems like Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, and Sombo.

In the Bujinkan, you generally have a training partner who feeds you a simple, specified, somewhat stylized attack (such as a lapel grab), then waits around compliantly as you break his balance and structure so that you can apply a grappling technique such as an arm lock or a throw.

In Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, Sombo, etc, you get to have training partners who actively, continually, and intelligently work to break your balance and structure so they can apply their techniques at the same time as they work to counter and pre-emptively shut down your techniques. They will anticipate your techniques and adapt to your movements.

The difference between the two experiences is night and day, even when the same physical principles or techniques are used.

In SC, sometime your opponent will

- roundhouse kick to your chest.
- hay-maker to your head.

You have to block it and apply your throw from there.

Here are examples:

 

[drop bear]

Plenty of teachers are in need of their own fitness training and are in no position to give advice on the topic.

A martial arts teacher is not automatically a fitness guru. However, that doesn’t mean you can’t learn good martial arts from them.

I don’t read drop bears posts.

Well I read yours.

If a martial arts instructor is not a fitness guru then it is an element of martial arts they cant teach.

So we will suggest they may still be able to teach parts of martial arts.

 

[JR 137]

To the entire group discussing fitness incorporated into MA class, I have to ask what are you referring to? Doing separate un-MA stuff like pushups, squats, burpees, planks, etc.; or are you talking about doing MA stuff like basics/line drills at a faster pace?

We don’t do much “fitness” stuff; we generally limit it to sets of pushups and sit-ups during transitions from one thing to another once or twice during class. But we go non-stop the hour-hour and a half we’re there. We always start with basics/line drills. Typically it’ll be something like 10 of each kick, each leg - front, roundhouse, side, hook. Then we’ll a kicking combo like front-roundhouse. Then we’ll incorporate punches into it. Then we’ll do hand techniques that build on each other. They’re not done against pads or anything like that; they’re done in the air. The instructor will remind people who are going too fast to slow down a bit and focus on technique, but it’s definitely not slow. Some people halfass it, but most of us are throwing stuff pretty hard and fast, and getting our heart rate and breathing up pretty good. Then we’ll typically do a set of pushups and sit-ups, then go right into kata. Several done one after the other without any break. Then we’ll typically go into partner work at a good pace, sparring drills, or sometimes some pad work. Another set of pushups and sit-ups, then sparring.

People can push themselves as hard as they want during class. Some push themselves pretty hard (present company included) and a few will look like they’re just going through the motions. You get out of it what you put into it. Gi gi is typically soaked with sweat 20 minutes into it. And there’s no air conditioning in the summer

Does the above fit under what you’re considering conditioning in class, or are you talking committing say a half hour of class to non-MA specific stuff?

There’s some nights where we get a lot more technical and slow things down after the line drills/basics. Those nights are typically when a group of people are learning new material after a recent promotion, or when there’s not too many people in class. We get some visitors from other dojos in our organization from time to time. A lot of them say we’ve got the reputation as being the toughest dojo - we don’t stop; it’s one thing into another without standing around at all, and we hit harder than the norm during sparring.

 

[drop bear]

To the entire group discussing fitness incorporated into MA class, I have to ask what are you referring to? Doing separate un-MA stuff like pushups, squats, burpees, planks, etc.; or are you talking about doing MA stuff like basics/line drills at a faster pace?

We don’t do much “fitness” stuff; we generally limit it to sets of pushups and sit-ups during transitions from one thing to another once or twice during class. But we go non-stop the hour-hour and a half we’re there. We always start with basics/line drills. Typically it’ll be something like 10 of each kick, each leg - front, roundhouse, side, hook. Then we’ll a kicking combo like front-roundhouse. Then we’ll incorporate punches into it. Then we’ll do hand techniques that build on each other. They’re not done against pads or anything like that; they’re done in the air. The instructor will remind people who are going too fast to slow down a bit and focus on technique, but it’s definitely not slow. Some people halfass it, but most of us are throwing stuff pretty hard and fast, and getting our heart rate and breathing up pretty good. Then we’ll typically do a set of pushups and sit-ups, then go right into kata. Several done one after the other without any break. Then we’ll typically go into partner work at a good pace, sparring drills, or sometimes some pad work. Another set of pushups and sit-ups, then sparring.

People can push themselves as hard as they want during class. Some push themselves pretty hard (present company included) and a few will look like they’re just going through the motions. You get out of it what you put into it. Gi gi is typically soaked with sweat 20 minutes into it. And there’s no air conditioning in the summer

Does the above fit under what you’re considering conditioning in class, or are you talking committing say a half hour of class to non-MA specific stuff?

There’s some nights where we get a lot more technical and slow things down after the line drills/basics. Those nights are typically when a group of people are learning new material after a recent promotion, or when there’s not too many people in class. We get some visitors from other dojos in our organization from time to time. A lot of them say we’ve got the reputation as being the toughest dojo - we don’t stop; it’s one thing into another without standing around at all, and we hit harder than the norm during sparring.

See in order to do a class like that you need to be fit. And so is one of the reasons I suggest extra dedicated fitness is important.

 

[JR 137]

See in order to do a class like that you need to be fit. And so is one of the reasons I suggest extra dedicated fitness is important.

Yes and no. If the teacher is expecting every student to be able to do everything, he’ll only give one set of instructions for the entire group.

When we’ve got a new student, he’ll have that/those students do a few less techniques in the combo during each count. He’ll stress “if you’re too tired, do every other count” don’t use as much power in your technique” etc. He’ll also tell them “if you need to stop for a minute or two to catch your breath, go ahead. Challenging yourself, but be smart about it so you don’t get too tired and have to sit out the rest of class.” It’s up to the student to find the pace that he/she can keep up and yet still get a workout in. After they’ve been there for a few weeks or so, they’re hanging with the rest of us (for the most part). And lower ranks don’t have combos that are as long as higher ranks, so there’s definitely a progression. If my teacher sees a newbie who’s capable of more than the norm, he’ll increase the number of techniques they know appropriately. Very, very rarely does the rest of the group have to wait until one or two people catch up to us.

I remember him telling me a few times during my first few classes to “don’t go so hard that you’re going to be too tired and sore to come back for the next class.” I’d smile and say “easier said than done.” I was sore, but nothing more than what a good warmup and stretch could get rid of.

But I agree extra dedicated fitness is important. It’s far easier to get better technically when you’re not struggling to keep up cardio-wise. But fitness is this crazy thing that no matter how fit you feel, you never feel fit enough. I guess it’s like heroine to my brother - there’s never going to be enough in the world to be fully satisfied all the time.