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[Tarrycat]

Boxing Is a martial art just because it doesn't have belts or forms or any of that doesn't make it not a martial art. Kickboxing is a martial art, Muay Thai is a martial art, fencing is a martial art, mma is a martial art anything combat related is a martial art

That wasn't meant to send... But my phone saves drafts & sends them out. You'll notice, hence the incomplete structure of my text.

I've always thought of boxing as a sport... But if others with more experience say otherwise then who am I to argue? I don't have the foundation to do so.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We do grappling as well.


Grappling is nothing new to us... In fact, it was one of the first technique divisions introduced to me. (Taijitsu - striking; grappling).

I 100% understand what you're saying though. They are two different arts entirely. It depends on the style of the attack.

Luckily we don't only focus on one style.

I will address grappling attacks tomorrow in class. Should be interesting!

My point was just that when someone stops you from using the easy flow of aiki techniques,your fitness matters more. And that is also where we are most vulnerable.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is a significant difference in how grappling is typically trained in the Takamatsuden arts (i.e. the Bujinkan and its offshoots) vs how they are trained in systems like Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, and Sombo.

In the Bujinkan, you generally have a training partner who feeds you a simple, specified, somewhat stylized attack (such as a lapel grab), then waits around compliantly as you break his balance and structure so that you can apply a grappling technique such as an arm lock or a throw.

In Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, Sombo, etc, you get to have training partners who actively, continually, and intelligently work to break your balance and structure so they can apply their techniques at the same time as they work to counter and pre-emptively shut down your techniques. They will anticipate your techniques and adapt to your movements.

The difference between the two experiences is night and day, even when the same physical principles or techniques are used.

A simple example is a standard leg sweep (osoto gari). Done as a compliant drill (partner feeding attacks) it requires no real fitness. Now change the drill - try to sweep each other. Now the sweating starts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can imagine how different they are. It isn't our primary focus. I would like to experience the Jiiujitsu grappling one day.

Isn't the main focus of Jiujitsu based on grappling? Or does it emphasize various other techniques as well? I'm not familiar with it. When I look at pictures, I always see the students wrestling & on the ground?

I once read one student saying that Brazilian Jiujitsu is superior to Japanese Jiujitsu.

When Tony and I say “grappling”, we refer to both standing and ground grappling.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That wasn't meant to send... But my phone saves drafts & sends them out. You'll notice, hence the incomplete structure of my text.

I've always thought of boxing as a sport... But if others with more experience say otherwise then who am I to argue? I don't have the foundation to do so.

That gets into the sticky, vague division between combat sparring et and martial art. I’ve yet to find a definition that removes the haziness.

 

[jobo]

That wasn't meant to send... But my phone saves drafts & sends them out. You'll notice, hence the incomplete structure of my text.

I've always thought of boxing as a sport... But if others with more experience say otherwise then who am I to argue? I don't have the foundation to do so.

there is an open debate on here about what is and isn't a ma,
some lump every thing with fighting in , other insist that only art developed for the battle field count, most don't really care

 

[JR 137]

Well we have never seen you and Donald trump in the same room together.

So I have my suspicions.

POLITICAL POST!!! POLITICAL POST!!!

Just mentioning his name is political and stirs up some nonsense

 

[Tarrycat]

there is an open debate on here about what is and isn't a ma,
some lump every thing with fighting in , other insist that only art developed for the battle field count, most don't really care

Well, I take my judgment back out of respect for your art. This is a MA forum after all. No art is superior, like I said initially. They all teach you something.

 

[Tarrycat]

That gets into the sticky, vague division between combat sparring et and martial art. I’ve yet to find a definition that removes the haziness.

Google & Youtube, GP. No worries.

 

[drop bear]

POLITICAL POST!!! POLITICAL POST!!!

Just mentioning his name is political and stirs up some nonsense

Dibber dobber.

 

[drop bear]

A simple example is a standard leg sweep (osoto gari). Done as a compliant drill (partner feeding attacks) it requires no real fitness. Now change the drill - try to sweep each other. Now the sweating starts.

We have a 69 year old judo guy come train with us from time to time. And it is like wrestling a brick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We have a 69 year old judo guy come train with us from time to time. And it is like wrestling a brick.

It's not that hard to play 100% defense and let your opponent to feel like a brick. The moment that you move and attack, your opponent can take advantage on your weight shifting.

Rock doesn't move but bull moves.That's why it's fun to watch bull fighting than to watch rock moving.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Isn't the main focus of Jiujitsu based on grappling? Or does it emphasize various other techniques as well? I'm not familiar with it. When I look at pictures, I always see the students wrestling & on the ground?

This isn't the simplest question to answer, because jujutsu/jiu-jitsu is not a single art, but rather a blanket term for a large family of (somewhat) related arts.

To begin with, you have a number of historical (koryu) Japanese arts. Some of these were supplemental battlefield arts for grappling in armor, others were intended for civilian use. In general the emphasis was on (standup) grappling, but strikes and weapons were sometimes included. The koryu arts have training methods and cultural trappings which are noticeably distinct from most modern systems. There are a fair number of these systems, but they aren't widely practiced compared to arts like Judo.

Next you have a smaller number of modern ("gendai") systems developed in Japan which are derived from these older arts. The most widely practiced is probably Judo, which was developed by Jigaro Kano based on his training in Tenjin Shin'yo-ryu and Kito Ryu. Kano changed the name of his art from jujutsu to judo. Ostensibly this was to emphasize the philosophical context of his art and the fact that it could represent a life path, but the name change could also be seen as an exercise in branding, since jujutsu and the other classical forms of bujutsu were not popular in a Japan which was striving to embrace modernity. Despite the name change, a number of prominent judoka taught the art under the "jujutsu" moniker for a while, especially overseas. Other successful modern forms developed in Japan are Aikido (derived from Daito-ryu Aikijutsu) and Wado-Ryu (although commonly thought of as a karate style these days, Wado-Ryu was created as a blend of karate and jujutsu - in fact the full name was originally Shinshu Wadoryu Karate-Jujutsu).

Finally you have a much larger number of jujutsu styles developed outside of Japan, generally derived from some combination of Judo, Aikido, some other jujutsu styles, karate, and/or assorted non-Japanese arts. In some cases the founders of these arts have changed the name or otherwise distinguished their systems from the Japanese source arts. In many other cases, they present their system as "Japanese Jujutsu", despite the facts that the exact lineage of their Japanese forebears is uncertain and the art has changed considerably from its ancestral form.

Here are some examples of notable non-Japanese members of the extended jujutsu family:

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: Originally an offshoot of Judo which specializes in ne-waza (ground grappling), BJJ has picked up concepts and techniques from other grappling arts such as catch wrestling and Sombo.

Sombo: A blend of Judo with various folk wrestling methods from the former Soviet Union.

Hapkido: A Korean derivation of Daito Ryu Aikijutsu. Some schools have added in kicking methods from Tae Kwon Do.

Danzan Ryu Jujutsu: Created by a Japanese expatriate living in Hawaii. Supposedly derived from Yoshin Ryu and other historical jujutsu systems, but historical verification is not available, so it may be just based on Judo and Aikido. Either way, the founder also mixed in elements of karate, boxing, escrima, kung fu, wrestling, and lua.

Small Circle Jujutsu: Derived from Danzan Ryu and Judo.

There are many, many more. Most have at least a heavy emphasis on grappling, but many include striking as well. Some include ground grappling, many only focus on standup methods. Many include live sparring as part of the training, others rely exclusively on compliant drills. It's hard to make any absolute statements which cover the entire family of arts.

 

[drop bear]

It's not that hard to play 100% defense and let your opponent to feel like a brick. The moment that you move and attack, your opponent can take advantage on your weight shifting.

Rock doesn't move but bull moves.That's why it's fun to watch bull fighting than to watch rock moving.

Easier to fight a bull than a rock tough

 

[Prostar]

If my students just left the floor at the end of a class and quietly went to the locker room and changed, then I know I missed it that night. If they were all animated and talking up a storm in the locker room, they just had a killer workout.

As to the part of the discussion regarding doing the work at home, I always stressed to my students that the instructor can pick out of the class those students did some work on their technique at home. It shows.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

doing the work at home,

Here is another example. You may learn how to apply a "head lock" (technique development). But if you don't train "pole hanging" (ability development) at home, your "head lock" will never be strong enough to be able to give your opponent any problem.

Can you train this in your school? Unless your school has those pole set up.

 

[Flying Crane]

Since so much of martial arts does seen to depend on physical fitness, I think it is in fact part of what has to be taught and followed up on. The two martial arts I studied, we mostly did that as part of warm ups, but we were critiqued on gross errors there as well. We had to keep improving. And in this, I think drop bear is correct to point out that if technique won't end the fight at the first aggressive move, the martial artist defending himself may not be able to sustain himself. So if a teacher notes that someone is unable to sustain himself, should he only tell the person to work out at home (which if not done well will affect his learning), or begin making him work out while training?

Plenty of teachers are in need of their own fitness training and are in no position to give advice on the topic.

A martial arts teacher is not automatically a fitness guru. However, that doesn’t mean you can’t learn good martial arts from them.

I don’t read drop bears posts.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Plenty of teachers are in need of their own fitness training and are in no position to give advice on the topic.

My teacher was very fit. When he was 74 years old, he still had 45 inch chest (I measured it myself). He told me that in his teacher's front yard, there was a 2 heads weight bar that was so heavy that every time he looked at it, he would hate it. All my life, I try not to work on too much weight that can make me to hate it.

 

[Anarax]

Regarding the fitness and martial training conversation going on. IMO, when someone starts training in martial arts they are most likely training new muscles, training muscles differently or both. For example, I was a triathlete when I started Karate and was very fit. However; my body wasn't accustomed to working the muscles like we did in Karate, thus it was challenging to say the least. However; I didn't stop swimming biking nor running when I started Karate. I encountered the same thing when I started Kali, different muscle groups and different movement equal a great workout. Essentially different styles train different muscles differently, though there is some overlap. There are also universal things like not being overweight and being a non-smoker that makes working out easier regardless of the type of workout.

That being said. I do not solely rely on my instructor to give me an intense workout. I enjoy when he does(afterwards), and I walk away feeling refreshed. However; there is a point as martial artists that we should start practicing on our own. If I want a great workout but also need to work on kicks, then I'll go to open gym and do numerous kicking drills. The same goes for any other training aspects, punches, footwork, speed, power, etc. We have covered so many drills in practice that I feel I can do a solo drill to improve on most things I need to work on. Furthering as martial artist means acknowledging what we need to work on, learn how to work on it, then most importantly following through and work on it.

Though I'm not an instructor, I can understand the challenge of regarding fitness. The biggest challenge I can see with doing an intense workout every class are the students that can't handle it. If you have elderly, younger or very out of shape students, such workouts might be too taxing to their bodies. I've had a hard time with this in the past, looking down or judging students that in my mind at the time where "limiting class". I started to realize that not everyone is a able as I am, and I need to understand that from their point of view and the instructor's. Thus when I solo train I can go as intensely as I want.

Finding the proper training culture is the best thing you can do. That doesn't automatically mean Muay Thai or BJJ. It more so depends on the class and instructor themselves. Style has very little to do with it, training culture is everything

 

[KenpoMaster805]

kenpo is good ive been doing kenpo for 4 years 3 moinths now and you can try like shotokan or goju ryu or other karate