KT:Is this good, bad, or ugly for Tracy's Kenpo?

[drop bear]

I'm saying it is different, every where you turn.

So are you going to give an example of kempo sparring that looks anything like those drills.

Or is this going to be some hunt for the loch ness monster.

How are you supporting your point?

 

[Touch Of Death]

So are you going to give an example of kempo sparring that looks anything like those drills.

Or is this going to be some hunt for the loch ness monster.

How are you supporting your point?

I had already decided to not do that. YouTube has some very bad kenpo, and I don't have a sparring vid, in mind.

 

[Touch Of Death]

So are you going to give an example of kempo sparring that looks anything like those drills.

Or is this going to be some hunt for the loch ness monster.

How are you supporting your point?

But the idea is to do exactly that, but you go 50% speed, and stuff, and then you get better.

 

[drop bear]

I had already decided to not do that. YouTube has some very bad kenpo, and I don't have a sparring vid, in mind.

Well then we are forced to go with the evidence we have?

Not the stuff we don't have.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I don't feel the motivation to convince you.

 

[drop bear]

I don't feel the motivation to convince you.

Well of course. Because the whole drill is based on a bunch of circumstances that don,t exist. It trains you to fight the worst common denominator.

You are training to fight a fighter that can't fight.

Now I would suggest training to fight a fighter that can fight automatically handles the guy that can't.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well of course. Because the whole drill is based on a bunch of circumstances that don,t exist. It trains you to fight the worst common denominator.

You are training to fight a fighter that can't fight.

Now I would suggest training to fight a fighter that can fight automatically handles the guy that can't.

No training to fight a boxer, teaches you to fight like a boxer. What if you never give them that range?

 

[drop bear]

No training to fight a boxer, teaches you to fight like a boxer. What if you never give them that range?

Nothing to do with denying people range.

Training to fight a gumby teaches you to fight like a gumby.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Nothing to do with denying people range.

Training to fight a gumby teaches you to fight like a gumby.

I forgive your ignorance.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is one of the reasons from my experience why martial arts doesn't really work. You learn one defence or one combination and drill it untill you think it will work.

None of my martial arts training has been built on this premise, not in the 4 different arts I've put any level of significant training into, nor in the half dozen or so I've dabbled in.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No a technical one. A baby can throw at a guy who is not throwing back.

The training is designed to deal with the idea that they might.

Every type of training involves some work with a non-resistant partner. Watch a brand new student in BJJ. When they learn their first escape from the mount, they aren't working right away against someone doing everything they can to stay in the mount. Look at a new person learning boxing. They aren't immediately learning to throw punches against someone who is trying their best to hit them back.

 

[drop bear]

Every type of training involves some work with a non-resistant partner. Watch a brand new student in BJJ. When they learn their first escape from the mount, they aren't working right away against someone doing everything they can to stay in the mount. Look at a new person learning boxing. They aren't immediately learning to throw punches against someone who is trying their best to hit them back.

Not even the same parallel. If it was two kempo guys working out a technique. Then there wouldn't be an argument

We did mount escape last night(knee push) and the newby couldn't make the escape work because he thought like that drill.

That he would have one dip at it and i would just roll off.

The escape doesn't work that way and there is no point drilling it that way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not even the same parallel. If it was two kempo guys working out a technique. Then there wouldn't be an argument

We did mount escape last night(knee push) and the newby couldn't make the escape work because he thought like that drill.

That he would have one dip at it and i would just roll off.

The escape doesn't work that way and there is no point drilling it that way.

Most drills (as opposed to free work and exercises) are developing motion, ingraining sequences for the muscles to use. It's like practicing a jab-cross-hook combination on focus mitts. There will be many times you will not get to the hook. There will even be times you won't get to the cross. The other guy gets to have input on those, as well.

I'm not a big fan of some of the sequences I see in Kempo, but I view them like focus mitt work. The initial attack isn't really the point of the specific string of responses. Usually the first two steps (the initial defense and first follow-up) are reasonable. The rest are just stringing together movements, not (IMO) for using them all in one long sequence, but to be able to easily pull up any part of the sequence.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The least amount of training time for me is spent in mount punching people.

Yet it is where I will do the most damage.

Why do you think that is?

Because you suck at standup?

 

[RTKDCMB]

No a technical one. A baby can throw at a guy who is not throwing back.

The training is designed to deal with the idea that they might.

Which is what sparring is for.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So it is like focus mitts but without the realism.

Focus mitts lack realism in many ways too.

 

[RTKDCMB]

This is one of the reasons from my experience why martial arts doesn't really work. You learn one defence or one combination and drill it untill you think it will work.

You think it will work because in training you can build that up full speed. So no matter how fast he comes at you you can defend yourself. And you are building a false positive

Because it doesn't work live or resisted.

No matter how slick you get that combination. If they are fighting you back then they are going to move to a different position. Or throw something else or something. And the rest of that combination wont work.

That is not quite how one step sparring works. You practice your basic techniques and combinations until they become instinctual. You learn various basic combinations as a beginner and after a while you learn to put them together instinctively. You break down the basic techniques and improve on them with minimal resistance. As your technique improves you get batter at applying them in a more dynamic environment with more resistance. If you do not do this and bypass the drills by only sparring you end up with sloppy, ineffective techniques and instead of being able to finish an attacker with one or two strikes you have to hit them a hundred times and still not finish them.

 

[hoshin1600]

i agree with drop bear on this one. this is a signature drill found in every branch of kenpo i have seen. and to me it does more harm than good. of course kenpo guys are going to defend it by saying "their school is different" or " you have to ramp it up over time" . basicly saying outsiders dont understand. i feel trying to justify something that is clearly sub par by saying it changes later or that kenpo guys understand the drill better is a cop out. it is what it is.
as far as not being able to find "good" kenpo on youtube is also a cop out. for any style. i find the general attitude about youtube is that the videos ARE a good cross section and representation of every style out there,,,,except when its your style and your being bashed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

as far as not being able to find "good" kenpo on youtube is also a cop out. for any style. i find the general attitude about youtube is that the videos ARE a good cross section and representation of every style out there,,,,except when its your style and your being bashed.

My impression of YouTube is that it provides a reasonable representation of only three areas:

• competition (so a good representation of most competition-focused arts)
• demonstrations (which are usually more designed to either wow or illustrate points to the general public)
• teaching drills and explanations (when posted to give folks something to work with)

I see very little of actual class work (the boring stuff) posted by most schools. When I look at what's available for NGA, I see the second and third category, mostly. We don't compete, so there's nothing in that category. And I've only rarely found anything of sparring and other live work I've seen in schools. Some testing footage has been posted, and some got critical comments. Part of the time, those comments were spot-on, other times they were based upon not understanding what was being tested (comparing it to sparring, for instance, which it wasn't).

So, the only stuff I consider a good evaluation of an art I don't know to be found on YouTube in most cases would be to look for competition videos. There, by looking for advanced folks competing, I can get some sense of how they apply the techniques live.

 

[Touch Of Death]

i agree with drop bear on this one. this is a signature drill found in every branch of kenpo i have seen. and to me it does more harm than good. of course kenpo guys are going to defend it by saying "their school is different" or " you have to ramp it up over time" . basicly saying outsiders dont understand. i feel trying to justify something that is clearly sub par by saying it changes later or that kenpo guys understand the drill better is a cop out. it is what it is.
as far as not being able to find "good" kenpo on youtube is also a cop out. for any style. i find the general attitude about youtube is that the videos ARE a good cross section and representation of every style out there,,,,except when its your style and your being bashed.

Well I don't do Tracy's Kenpo; so, this could be the best example, as far as I'm concerned.