Kotegaeshi with a difference

[now disabled]

Exactly that. Here is a clip of what aikido vs aikido actually looks like. A whole lot less running and diving and a whole lot more stifling and struggling.

That is Tomiki Aikido and basing what you say on it is not altogether balanced

 

[now disabled]

I've often said that, if trained well, Aikido against a collected and/or skilled opponent should look more like Judo. If not trained well, it keeps trying to look like Aikido in the dojo, and just doesn't work.

I see where your coming from and yes the dojo classical style doesn't work i have said that many times in conversations with yourself.

What I will stand by is that the principles do work it the application of said that needs tweaked

 

[now disabled]

I agree, and will add one adjustment. With many grappling techniques - especially when focusing on least resistance - you can't expect to perform a specific technique against a resisting partner. If your partner knows what is coming, and uses what he knows, most grappling fails reliably. Same is true for punches, of course: if you know I'm throwing a jab, my ability to connect that jab goes way down, because all you have to do is defend that one thing. So, variable input and variable response options. If an opening almost never presents, that's a low percentage technique against that person. If that pattern continues with other people (especially if it continues with new students and people from other styles), that's probably a low percentage technique all-around...and only worth training if it's just too damned much fun to not train.

I do agree with the point that if you know what is coming then you should be able to reverse it.

I do think Aikido has many flaws and when talking to and putting it up against skilled martial artists the flaws will come out as they are skilled ... and in any cage or MMA fight Aikido will struggle if it applied classically

That said against the average dude in the street I would say it has a chance assuming it is applied (not the classical way the shortened tweaked way) if you remember the vid poated a while back when a guy used kotegaeshi ...well it was more the classical way as he was taught he put the guy down but he used the big circle which had the opponent been more skilled he'd have well you get the idea.


I posted those vids really just to show different approaches and from different schools as they all were from different styles

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I do think Aikido has many flaws ...

Do Aikido guys train foot sweep or single leg?

 

[Ryback]

Aikido works, it can work in any situation according to the person's skills...
Since the days of the Samurai the practice of martial arts was done in a controlled environment for obvious reasons... Imagine two people "sparring" with katana swords... There would have been more dead bodies at the dojos than the battlefield.
In my opinion Aikido doesn't look like Judo or anything else in a real fight. Aikido is Aikido it has its principles. In a real fight it could be anything from a single devastating atemi to one of the most complicated techniques...
I agree that it's not a good idea to try to grab on one's wrist while he is punching you, that's why Aikido has hand deflections but as I said, anything is within the person's skills and ability. Of course, when you don't know the attack it's more difficult to defend against it, that's why in Aikido we are forging certain combat skills rather than training different scenarios that may never happen... Kata is not a scenario, anyone who is practicing seriously Aikido knows what I mean..
So, yes, it's more difficult when you don't know what's coming but remember that in a real self defense situation, your attacker doesn't know of your Aikido skills either...

 

[now disabled]

Do Aikido guys train foot sweep or single leg?

Not in classical Aikido

 

[Martial D]

Aikido works, it can work in any situation according to the person's skills...
Since the days of the Samurai the practice of martial arts was done in a controlled environment for obvious reasons... Imagine two people "sparring" with katana swords... There would have been more dead bodies at the dojos than the battlefield.
In my opinion Aikido doesn't look like Judo or anything else in a real fight. Aikido is Aikido it has its principles. In a real fight it could be anything from a single devastating atemi to one of the most complicated techniques...
I agree that it's not a good idea to try to grab on one's wrist while he is punching you, that's why Aikido has hand deflections but as I said, anything is within the person's skills and ability. Of course, when you don't know the attack it's more difficult to defend against it, that's why in Aikido we are forging certain combat skills rather than training different scenarios that may never happen... Kata is not a scenario, anyone who is practicing seriously Aikido knows what I mean..
So, yes, it's more difficult when you don't know what's coming but remember that in a real self defense situation, your attacker doesn't know of your Aikido skills either...

The same could be said for pro wrestling though. You can SAY anything works. All we truely have to work with is the vast repository of video evidence and/or first hand experience. I've examined many hours of aikido footage, and regularly spar with a guy that knows aikido. When I go limp for him and cooperate he can throw me around in cool ways, but in sparring he only gets people with sweeps and shoots. Throwing a guy by his wrist(unless you count a head and arm throw) just isn't something that happens, at least not very often.

Even in that aikido vs aikido tournament clip I posted there aren't any throws like that.

Now this isn't to say I think aikido is useless, because I don't. It helps movement, stability, and flow. It really seems to help with cadence and timing too in the clinch. It is, IMO, as osensei intended, a great thing for a trained fighter to supplement his skills with.

 

[now disabled]

Even in that aikido vs aikido tournament clip I posted there aren't any throws like that.

That was Tomiki style Aikido

 

[now disabled]

The same could be said for pro wrestling though. You can SAY anything works. All we truely have to work with is the vast repository of video evidence and/or first hand experience. I've examined many hours of aikido footage, and regularly spar with a guy that knows aikido. When I go limp for him and cooperate he can throw me around in cool ways, but in sparring he only gets people with sweeps and shoots. Throwing a guy by his wrist(unless you count a head and arm throw) just isn't something that happens, at least not very often.

Even in that aikido vs aikido tournament clip I posted there aren't any throws like that.

Now this isn't to say I think aikido is useless, because I don't. It helps movement, stability, and flow. It really seems to help with cadence and timing too in the clinch. It is, IMO, as osensei intended, a great thing for a trained fighter to supplement his skills with.

What rank or grade is the guy you say knows Aikido ? I am not being nasty but it does matter and what style Aikido does he study?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not in classical Aikido

This is my concern. Why?

The 1st time that I saw MT flying knee, I asked myself, why didn't I have that in my long fist system?

It's very difficult for me to believe that Aikido guys don't know there is a technique called "foot sweep". Even if you don't have it in your system, after you have added it in, it will be in your system. It's just a such simple logic.

My question is after so many years, why there is still no Aikido guys who tried to add foot sweep, or single leg into the Aikido system?

 

[now disabled]

This is my concern. Why?

The 1st time that I saw MT flying knee, I asked myself, why didn't I have that in my long fist system?

It's very difficult for me to believe that Aikido guys don't know there is a technique called "foot sweep". Even if you don't have it in your system, after you have added it in, it will be in your system. It's just a such simple logic.

My question is after so many years, why there is still no Aikido guys who tried to add foot sweep, or single leg into the Aikido system?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

they do lol they do but it not classical Aikido lol

just because you are not seeing vids of that does not mean that it is not used lol the vids that are posted are mostly either classical Aikido (dojo training vids) or demos and they ain't gonna do that as it not part of the Aikido system (as such)

I have said before that why the strikes Kicking etc etc was never incoporated into any drills is because whe Ueshiba started teaching or formulating Aikido the students he taught (and they were mostly by introduction not walk in of the street) already knew how tokick punch strike sweep etc so he just didn't teach what they already knew

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I do agree with the point that if you know what is coming then you should be able to reverse it.

I do think Aikido has many flaws and when talking to and putting it up against skilled martial artists the flaws will come out as they are skilled ... and in any cage or MMA fight Aikido will struggle if it applied classically

That said against the average dude in the street I would say it has a chance assuming it is applied (not the classical way the shortened tweaked way) if you remember the vid poated a while back when a guy used kotegaeshi ...well it was more the classical way as he was taught he put the guy down but he used the big circle which had the opponent been more skilled he'd have well you get the idea.


I posted those vids really just to show different approaches and from different schools as they all were from different styles

Yep. There are plenty of videos (of actual altercations) of people punching with the kind of forward commitment that makes aiki responses pretty easy to access.

 

[now disabled]

Yep. There are plenty of videos (of actual altercations) of people punching with the kind of forward commitment that makes aiki responses pretty easy to access.

you sir can see that but that is because you know the principles of Aikido thereby you can see the openings

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do Aikido guys train foot sweep or single leg?

I’m not sure. I’ve never seen either referenced in an Aikido book or video, or in any class or seminar I’ve attended. But I’ve talked to Aikidoka who knew a sweep similar to what I teach (close to osotogari in the basic form), so they may have the principles for that foot sweep. And the single-leg principles are there, except maybe for the need to brace against them in he pivot.

 

[now disabled]

I’m not sure. I’ve never seen either referenced in an Aikido book or video, or in any class or seminar I’ve attended. But I’ve talked to Aikidoka who knew a sweep similar to what I teach (close to osotogari in the basic form), so they may have the principles for that foot sweep. And the single-leg principles are there, except maybe for the need to brace against them in he pivot.

they are not in any classical Aikido style but as you say it does not mean they would not use one if required

I still say that imo the reason that they are not in the Aikido curriculum is due to the original students already knowing that kinda of thing ...but that just my thoughts as Ueshiba did on numerous occasions say that atemi were a big part of Aikido (I forget the % he used lol)

 

[now disabled]

my view is that O sensei never intended for Aikido to be an effective fighting art. it wasnt about using it in a fight at all. but putting that aside and if we are going to "go there" with the fighting application then aikido fails because of one basic flaw... pressure testing. many will argue over this but this is how i see it. in science the biggest question is what test to use to prove out a hypothesis. same applies here. if your not using the right test you will never know if your stuff works.
my 7 yo son seems the think that if he had a few dinosaur size feathers and a trampoline he could fly. in his mind it will work. the problem is that he doesnt have a full concept of the strength of gravity. in the same way martial artists tend to view their technique with the same lack of conceptual understanding. they are not adding the full complexity to their model. thus their mind see's that it will work. there is a big difference between "seeing" it work in your mind and it actually working.
if aikido wants to prove out their hypothesis then they need to step up to a multi level analysis. start with what you have ... a static thrusting munetsuki. then step up to a more boxer style punch. this should also include variability, the punch should be targeted anywhere on the torso ( meaning variation in vectors) then retract back to the gaurd. next the testing needs to be stepped up to randomization, where the uke can throw any punch to any target. over hand right, hook , jab, shovel hook, cross right.
then full sparring full contact and get your technique to work.

until that happens then Aikido is going to have problems with the MMA crowd.

I am not sure that I agree totally ....yes in the end he did not (when oomoto really started influencing his thinking and attitudes towards Aikido) but the early stuff and the during the war no I thimk he at that time did ...his book budo was given as a manual to the military (I think it was the navy) and Tomiki did teach to the military as did Shioda (pre Yoshinkan) and I am sure he himself taught at the naval academy

 

[Martial D]

What rank or grade is the guy you say knows Aikido ? I am not being nasty but it does matter and what style Aikido does he study?

I'll ask him what style of aikido it is next time I see him. I know he recently got promoted to 1st Dan because he was talking about it.

 

[drop bear]

Yep. There are plenty of videos (of actual altercations) of people punching with the kind of forward commitment that makes aiki responses pretty easy to access.

It really isnt that easy. This is why people get hit by them. It just looks easy on a video.

 

[now disabled]

I'll ask him what style of aikido it is next time I see him. I know he recently got promoted to 1st Dan because he was talking about it.

Hmmm that may well explain a bit (not knocking the guy ) but if he has just reached shodan then it really is not the best guide ....that is not meant to offend but try and find a sandan or above that may give you a better test and one from either Yoshinkan old Iwama style or the tenshin style then you might have a different perspective

Again not knocking your friend but really a newly promoted shodan isn't the best test

 

[now disabled]

It really isnt that easy. This is why people get hit by them. It just looks easy on a video.

I agree to eg a trained boxer it will not be easy at all but to a normal saturday night idiot well that a different ball game .he throws and well there will be some form of opening where as a trained fighter there will not be necessarily

I get what you mean and other folks who are skilled however in the real world how many trained fighters are you going to run into ? (ok you may say in your life plenty where as in my life very few ...oh there are those who think they are until it comes to crunch time and well that a different story)