Kotegaeshi with a difference

[Martial D]

Hmmm that may well explain a bit (not knocking the guy ) but if he has just reached shodan then it really is not the best guide ....that is not meant to offend but try and find a sandan or above that may give you a better test and one from either Yoshinkan old Iwama style or the tenshin style then you might have a different perspective

Again not knocking your friend but really a newly promoted shodan isn't the best test

Well, he's been doing it for ten or so years I think. Maybe it'll work after 20.

 

[Martial D]

That was Tomiki style Aikido

Oh ya, this. I don't know what flavour of aikido you did, so could you post a video of someone doing it in a fight(tournament or otherwise) so that I might compare the two?

 

[Steve]

I agree to eg a trained boxer it will not be easy at all but to a normal saturday night idiot well that a different ball game .he throws and well there will be some form of opening where as a trained fighter there will not be necessarily

I get what you mean and other folks who are skilled however in the real world how many trained fighters are you going to run into ? (ok you may say in your life plenty where as in my life very few ...oh there are those who think they are until it comes to crunch time and well that a different story)

Are you just hoping to never fight anyone who has some experience fighting? That Saturday night idiot might also have been a high school wrestler, a former gold gloves boxer, or a guy who just likes to get into fights and has a natural aptitude for violence. Training to beat untrained people is pretty easy and doesn’t take long. If that’s the measure, 6 months of boxing, judo, mma, must Thai or BJJ and you’re good to go.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There's no such thing, John. No technique counters every attack. A punch is as close to a universal answer as you can get, and it fails reliably against some attacks (as early UFC showed us).

When your opponent punches you, he has to put weight on his leading leg. You can either kick that knee, or sweep that leg. The opportunity will always be there.

If you are good at foot sweep, you can handle almost 80% of your problem. Some techniques are more useful than the other.

 

[Ryback]

The same could be said for pro wrestling though. You can SAY anything works. All we truely have to work with is the vast repository of video evidence and/or first hand experience. I've examined many hours of aikido footage, and regularly spar with a guy that knows aikido. When I go limp for him and cooperate he can throw me around in cool ways, but in sparring he only gets people with sweeps and shoots. Throwing a guy by his wrist(unless you count a head and arm throw) just isn't something that happens, at least not very often.

Even in that aikido vs aikido tournament clip I posted there aren't any throws like that.

Now this isn't to say I think aikido is useless, because I don't. It helps movement, stability, and flow. It really seems to help with cadence and timing too in the clinch. It is, IMO, as osensei intended, a great thing for a trained fighter to supplement his skills with.

Well I don't know if everything works but most traditional Martial arts have the potential to work if the person practicing them has the skills needed... Aikido, Tai Chi, Wing Chun, Aiki-jutsu, you name it.
And of course sparring or combative sports is not the way of the warrior so we don't measure Aikido in such a context... And furthermore Kote gaeshi is not the only aikido technique. It works when the situation calls for it as it is with any other technique.
As for sparring or testing or experimenting with an aikidoka... Well, in another thread I saw a YouTube link of someone supposedly using Aikido to fight an MMA guy and completely failing.... So everyone's thoughts are probably "well, Aikido is useless against the MMA guy", but....the fact of the matter is that the aikidoka is lousy in his Aikido. In the whole video his posture is bad, his movements very far away from the Aikido way of moving and, to make matters worse, he is not trying a single Aikido technique, anything!! He looks like he is going for his legs or doing other lousy, monkey mumbo jumbo and he is claiming to be doing aikido.
The guy is a bloody joke! He is, not the art! And that's not bad, nobody is perfect but you don't post a video on YouTube demonstrating your incompetence and blame it on the art.
And by the way, I think we should stop trying to decipher what o'sensei wanted, what o'sensei said because o'sensei was saying a lot of things, mostly in Japanese, a long time ago and maybe he was changing his mind every other day. So to claim that o'sensei wanted Aikido to be a supplement of other martial arts skills is at least naive...
There were people in Aikido that had previous martial arts background and they were close to o'sensei, like Shioda... Neither he, nor Saito or Tohei or whoever ever claimed in any of their books that Aikido needs other martial arts experience in order for it to work... And also in my experience, it doesn't! It is a complete martial art as much as it can get(and so are others too of course).
One just needs to study hard in order to get Aikido's principles inside Aikido's techniques to make it work. It's all on the individual person, the art is perfect, all martial arts are perfect. The openings and flows we see in them are people's lack of perfection. Believe me I see a lot of this in myself, but I am working on it....

 

[now disabled]

Oh ya, this. I don't know what flavour of aikido you did, so could you post a video of someone doing it in a fight(tournament or otherwise) so that I might compare the two?

Well as there is only one from of Aikido that has any competition that will be difficult and as I cannot train due to health reasons (yes I was on the mat recently to try something out but it was very clear I cannot train fully now) I studied both Aikikai, Yoshinkan and the old Iwama style (before it returned under the control of the Hombu ...yes it was always affiliated before anyone jumps but it was differnt) #

So basically I cannot

Be aware that the vid you posted is the only style that has competition and as such there are rules as to what counts and what does not ...for scoring ...it is not a free full contact anything goes so looking at it well again gives a distorted view

I am not going to go into why or the where fors of how it was created but if you do a little reading and research you will find that out

But in no way try to even think it is in any way shape or form like other competition arts as it is not lol

 

[now disabled]

Are you just hoping to never fight anyone who has some experience fighting? That Saturday night idiot might also have been a high school wrestler, a former gold gloves boxer, or a guy who just likes to get into fights and has a natural aptitude for violence. Training to beat untrained people is pretty easy and doesn’t take long. If that’s the measure, 6 months of boxing, judo, mma, must Thai or BJJ and you’re good to go.

My friend I have had many confrontations in life and some that have left me in the condition I now am

Would i use and did I use Aikido yup and did it work yup

Saying the saturday night idiot could be this or that ...well yes he could be but there again he might not be lol ...so that really is a moot point , but I would add that well at least what I have seen most of the saturday night idiots are not trained fighters and as over here we tend not to have high school wrestling teams etc.

If you are implying that most attacs or confrontations are with trained fighters then I would disagree and I would add that in my experience trained people tend to avoid fights not look for them

 

[now disabled]

Well I don't know if everything works but most traditional Martial arts have the potential to work if the person practicing them has the skills needed... Aikido, Tai Chi, Wing Chun, Aiki-jutsu, you name it.
And of course sparring or combative sports is not the way of the warrior so we don't measure Aikido in such a context... And furthermore Kote gaeshi is not the only aikido technique. It works when the situation calls for it as it is with any other technique.
As for sparring or testing or experimenting with an aikidoka... Well, in another thread I saw a YouTube link of someone supposedly using Aikido to fight an MMA guy and completely failing.... So everyone's thoughts are probably "well, Aikido is useless against the MMA guy", but....the fact of the matter is that the aikidoka is lousy in his Aikido. In the whole video his posture is bad, his movements very far away from the Aikido way of moving and, to make matters worse, he is not trying a single Aikido technique, anything!! He looks like he is going for his legs or doing other lousy, monkey mumbo jumbo and he is claiming to be doing aikido.
The guy is a bloody joke! He is, not the art! And that's not bad, nobody is perfect but you don't post a video on YouTube demonstrating your incompetence and blame it on the art.
And by the way, I think we should stop trying to decipher what o'sensei wanted, what o'sensei said because o'sensei was saying a lot of things, mostly in Japanese, a long time ago and maybe he was changing his mind every other day. So to claim that o'sensei wanted Aikido to be a supplement of other martial arts skills is at least naive...
There were people in Aikido that had previous martial arts background and they were close to o'sensei, like Shioda... Neither he, nor Saito or Tohei or whoever ever claimed in any of their books that Aikido needs other martial arts experience in order for it to work... And also in my experience, it doesn't! It is a complete martial art as much as it can get(and so are others too of course).
One just needs to study hard in order to get Aikido's principles inside Aikido's techniques to make it work. It's all on the individual person, the art is perfect, all martial arts are perfect. The openings and flows we see in them are people's lack of perfection. Believe me I see a lot of this in myself, but I am working on it....

It may be my fault in saying that the striking kicking etc etc was left out ...that was just my own thoughts and observations my friend having spent a good number of years in Aikido and reading learning and in some ways researching and what I did learn was that most if not all of the original students knew how to punch ick etc before they started their Aikido journey and it is my opinion only that Ueshiba did not see the need to include the punching drills etc ...I am not a far from am I having a go at Ueshiba the man was truly a gifted human being and a master of what he did and that is easy to see ...what I am saying is that the post war Aikido was affected by his spiritual thinkings and ways

 

[now disabled]

When your opponent punches you, he has to put weight on his leading leg. You can either kick that knee, or sweep that leg. The opportunity will always be there.

If you are good at foot sweep, you can handle almost 80% of your problem. Some techniques are more useful than the other.

Ok

but not as everything in life can be solved one way there usually more than one way to do things

I get that in your training most things seem to be solved with a kick or a punch but other arts do have different approaches

 

[Tez3]

You keep leading with some variation of 'im not upset' and then fly off the handle for three paragraphs.

I really don't see where he's getting upset, you seem to be projecting your feelings onto him. I don't train Aikido, though I've done a little and have trained with people who have but his points are put forward in a very reasonable way so it must be the way you are reading them.

 

[drop bear]

I agree to eg a trained boxer it will not be easy at all but to a normal saturday night idiot well that a different ball game .he throws and well there will be some form of opening where as a trained fighter there will not be necessarily

I get what you mean and other folks who are skilled however in the real world how many trained fighters are you going to run into ? (ok you may say in your life plenty where as in my life very few ...oh there are those who think they are until it comes to crunch time and well that a different story)

Why do you think people get hit by unskilled fighters?

 

[now disabled]

Why do you think people get hit by unskilled fighters?

numerous reasons

 

[drop bear]

Are you just hoping to never fight anyone who has some experience fighting? That Saturday night idiot might also have been a high school wrestler, a former gold gloves boxer, or a guy who just likes to get into fights and has a natural aptitude for violence. Training to beat untrained people is pretty easy and doesn’t take long. If that’s the measure, 6 months of boxing, judo, mma, must Thai or BJJ and you’re good to go.

That Saturday night idiot will be trying to take your head off with that punch. Not thowing it slowly or predictably so it can be caught.

It changes the game.

It is basically changing the attack so the defence works. Which is self defence suicide.

 

[drop bear]

numerous reasons

But an average person doesn't have to do aikido. They just have to move their head. It should be easier to just never get hit.

 

[now disabled]

But an average person doesn't have to do aikido. They just have to move their head. It should be easier to just never get hit.

Oh I agree totally there 100%

I am not saying that anyone needs Aikido at all sorry if I gave that impression

 

[drop bear]

Well I don't know if everything works but most traditional Martial arts have the potential to work if the person practicing them has the skills needed... Aikido, Tai Chi, Wing Chun, Aiki-jutsu, you name it.
And of course sparring or combative sports is not the way of the warrior so we don't measure Aikido in such a context... And furthermore Kote gaeshi is not the only aikido technique. It works when the situation calls for it as it is with any other technique.
As for sparring or testing or experimenting with an aikidoka... Well, in another thread I saw a YouTube link of someone supposedly using Aikido to fight an MMA guy and completely failing.... So everyone's thoughts are probably "well, Aikido is useless against the MMA guy", but....the fact of the matter is that the aikidoka is lousy in his Aikido. In the whole video his posture is bad, his movements very far away from the Aikido way of moving and, to make matters worse, he is not trying a single Aikido technique, anything!! He looks like he is going for his legs or doing other lousy, monkey mumbo jumbo and he is claiming to be doing aikido.
The guy is a bloody joke! He is, not the art! And that's not bad, nobody is perfect but you don't post a video on YouTube demonstrating your incompetence and blame it on the art.
And by the way, I think we should stop trying to decipher what o'sensei wanted, what o'sensei said because o'sensei was saying a lot of things, mostly in Japanese, a long time ago and maybe he was changing his mind every other day. So to claim that o'sensei wanted Aikido to be a supplement of other martial arts skills is at least naive...
There were people in Aikido that had previous martial arts background and they were close to o'sensei, like Shioda... Neither he, nor Saito or Tohei or whoever ever claimed in any of their books that Aikido needs other martial arts experience in order for it to work... And also in my experience, it doesn't! It is a complete martial art as much as it can get(and so are others too of course).
One just needs to study hard in order to get Aikido's principles inside Aikido's techniques to make it work. It's all on the individual person, the art is perfect, all martial arts are perfect. The openings and flows we see in them are people's lack of perfection. Believe me I see a lot of this in myself, but I am working on it....

If you are going to suggest something works. You really should show it working.

 

[drop bear]

Oh I agree totally there 100%

I am not saying that anyone needs Aikido at all sorry if I gave that impression

I don't think people have a real grasp on how fast a real punch comes at you. Whether it is sloppy and telegraphed or not.
.
I am going to have to explain this hard truth. If you get your friend, put a set of 16s on him and get him to hit you. He is easier to deal with than a guy trying to kill you.

So if your technique doesnt work against your friend throwing casual punches. Do not assume it will work when they start thowing 100%

Forwards momentum at speed is not working to your advantage. If you can't handle that dynamic at half speed.

So people get punched by sloppy punches because even though they are terrible and telegraphed. They are still coming too fast to deal with properly.

Aikido doesnt work at half speed because they are trying to squeeze too much crap in to to short a time frame.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It really isnt that easy. This is why people get hit by them. It just looks easy on a video.

I didn't say they were necessarily easy to counter - just that they make for easy access to aiki responses. Aiki responses aren't magical, so they have the same kinds of technical difficulties you'd expect of any technique.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, he's been doing it for ten or so years I think. Maybe it'll work after 20.

This is a common issue I've heard from folks training in Aikido, actually. There's a long learning curve to real proficiency. This is understandable if it was originally intended as a "finishing school" for already competent martial artists, who don't need to get to competency (they already have that) and would probably not take as long to proficiency in Aikido as a true beginner would.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh ya, this. I don't know what flavour of aikido you did, so could you post a video of someone doing it in a fight(tournament or otherwise) so that I might compare the two?

As far as I know, Tomiki is the only style that does tournaments.