Kotegaeshi with a difference

[Ryback]

I have spoken to Paul Cale about it. His issues kind of reflect MMA vs Aikido guys issues which seem to be consistent with any Aikido guy who can actually demonstratively make any martial art work.

Shibucho Paul Cale – Kudo Australia

I would have to see something work before I invest time and money in it.

Can you make aikido work? Can anybody do it on video and then explain it.

I mean there is no shortage of aikido video. These guys are not hiding out. It is just the lack of demonstrated with resistance that makes me not want to put the day in day out no Sundays.

And potentially get no result.

What do you mean by resistance? Putting all of your strength in order to stop the aikidoka from applying a technique? That would be a huge mistake for two reasons.
Firstly because if the attacker (Uke) does that the technique is actually applied easier, I've tried it millions of times...
And secondly, because it is very dangerous to do such a thing, something will be dislocated, broken or worse.
If on the other hand, by resistance you mean relaxing in order to be able to re-attack or apply another technique as a counter technique, then that's fine and we practice that every day, although I wouldn't call it resistance (it's actually kaeshi waza).
The reason that we do not often see kaeshi waza in demos is probably because most Aikidoka want to demonstrate a set of clear techniques. Or at least that's my conclusion, I don't do public demos and I don't film myself because I don't think it accomplishes anything... It's not something bad, it's simply not my cup of tea...

 

[Ryback]

While I do agree that aikido has a fantastic potential, criticism regarding its effectiveness is justified in a sense: so far no modern exponent of the art has been able to show it working against a resisting opponent. While it's great in theory, if you cannot show it working, it's all talk...

As I said in another post, define resistance. Usually there is a misunderstanding with this term.
Resistance is putting effort and strength in order to stop the technique from happening... Well, that will never happen. If the Uke resists the Tori will apply the technique much easier and the Uke will get injured...
Now if we are talking about counter attacking or doing a counter technique it is part of Aikido anyway.
If you mean that the attack should be firm and strong in the beginning, again that's how we do it...
In demos people are trying to show a nice, clean way of applying the techniques because it's simply a demonstration of the art, not a real self defense situation...

 

[Martial D]

The effectiveness of a martial art has nothing to do with sports fighting or sparring, that's a game with rules and referees...
Most Aikidoka I know (myself included) would try to stay out of harms way by avoiding any conflict and when it ever happens, believe me, I won't stop to make sure that my cellphone's camera is recording in order to satisfy people on YouTube or any forum...
As a matter of fact, I wouldn't like any witnesses around...

So, all we have to go on is your very strong assertions that this stuff ought to work, but there is literally no evidence, anywhere, to support said assertions. Gotcha.

 

[drop bear]

What do you mean by resistance? Putting all of your strength in order to stop the aikidoka from applying a technique? That would be a huge mistake for two reasons.
Firstly because if the attacker (Uke) does that the technique is actually applied easier, I've tried it millions of times...
And secondly, because it is very dangerous to do such a thing, something will be dislocated, broken or worse.
If on the other hand, by resistance you mean relaxing in order to be able to re-attack or apply another technique as a counter technique, then that's fine and we practice that every day, although I wouldn't call it resistance (it's actually kaeshi waza).
The reason that we do not often see kaeshi waza in demos is probably because most Aikidoka want to demonstrate a set of clear techniques. Or at least that's my conclusion, I don't do public demos and I don't film myself because I don't think it accomplishes anything... It's not something bad, it's simply not my cup of tea...

I can punch a guy who is putting all his strength into trying to stop me and not be dangerous. I can throw a guy and not be dangerous. I can do chokes and neck cranks and arm bars and heel hooks and wrist locks.

But you can't do a wrist lock without them either collapsing on you ripping their arm off.

So basically you can't do anything that would provide any sort of empirical evidence.

And your own conclusions are not drawn from any sort of empirical evidence.

I can see what that guy from the Aikido vs video is on about.

 

[drop bear]

What is aikido supposed to do by the way?

Because I can do MMA more safely. Which still blows my mind.

 

[O'Malley]

As I said in another post, define resistance. Usually there is a misunderstanding with this term.
Resistance is putting effort and strength in order to stop the technique from happening... Well, that will never happen. If the Uke resists the Tori will apply the technique much easier and the Uke will get injured...
Now if we are talking about counter attacking or doing a counter technique it is part of Aikido anyway.
If you mean that the attack should be firm and strong in the beginning, again that's how we do it...
In demos people are trying to show a nice, clean way of applying the techniques because it's simply a demonstration of the art, not a real self defense situation...

Ok, let's rephrase it.

No modern exponent of the art has been filmed while successfully dealing with a competent attacker in a live situation (meaning that the attacker is allowed to throw whatever he wants, when he wants, including feints and combos). These days, you only see kata, even during so-called 'randori'.

 

[pdg]

What is aikido supposed to do by the way?

Kill instantly.

That's why there's no video - only survivors get to publish video.

Because I can do MMA more safely. Which still blows my mind.

You're not doing it right.

 

[drop bear]

Ok, let's rephrase it.

No modern exponent of the art has been filmed while successfully dealing with a competent attacker in a live situation (meaning that the attacker is allowed to throw whatever he wants, when he wants, including feints and combos). These days, you only see kata, even during so-called 'randori'.

So I looked up kageshi waza. Is this accurate?

 

[now disabled]

So I looked up kageshi waza. Is this accurate?

Kaeshi waza means counter techniques and it not just in Aikido it means that

 

[drop bear]

I have done kotegeshi in fights by the way. It cranks the arm but doesn't really get the throw. So i have probably hurt people with it. But not effectively advanced my position much. And not hurt them so they collapse.

When I did it in training people flipped over fine because they knew what was coming. Which is why I thought it should work.

I use it a lot for stripping weapons. Which was predominantly glasses. But have done the occasional knife. And once a cigarette packet by mistake.

I can do kotageshi in sparring if the other guy is terrible. But then I have more than one speed.

 

[drop bear]

Kaeshi waza means counter techniques and it not just in Aikido it means that

Yeah aparently it is judo as well.
But is it still coreographed?

rather than say flow wrestling.

 

[now disabled]

I have done kotegeshi in fights by the way. It cranks the arm but doesn't really get the throw. So i have probably hurt people with it. But not effectively advanced my position much. And not hurt them so they collapse.

When I did it in training people flipped over fine because they knew what was coming. Which is why I thought it should work.

I use it a lot for stripping weapons. Which was predominantly glasses. But have done the occasional knife. And once a cigarette packet by mistake.

I can do kotageshi in sparring if the other guy is terrible. But then I have more than one speed.

In a dojo yup there is a very good chance the person will flip esp in you use the classical tech and use the big circle version , however if you go smaller and quicker and more direct then the flip as you put it need not happen. Kotegaeshi is not necessarily a throw ,,,yes in the training videos it looks that way but that is really the uke taking the breakfall ...Kotegaeshi isn't by any means the finish in itself as if imo you do so you follow up ...with whatever you want to follow up with or you use the pin.

 

[now disabled]

Yeah aparently it is judo as well.
But is it still coreographed?

rather than say flow wrestling.

All training is that way

 

[now disabled]

I have done kotegeshi in fights by the way. It cranks the arm but doesn't really get the throw. So i have probably hurt people with it. But not effectively advanced my position much. And not hurt them so they collapse.

When I did it in training people flipped over fine because they knew what was coming. Which is why I thought it should work.

I use it a lot for stripping weapons. Which was predominantly glasses. But have done the occasional knife. And once a cigarette packet by mistake.

I can do kotageshi in sparring if the other guy is terrible. But then I have more than one speed.

Also kotegaeshi is not just an Aikido tech it is in many many arts not just Aikido

 

[drop bear]

In a dojo yup there is a very good chance the person will flip esp in you use the classical tech and use the big circle version , however if you go smaller and quicker and more direct then the flip as you put it need not happen. Kotegaeshi is not necessarily a throw ,,,yes in the training videos it looks that way but that is really the uke taking the breakfall ...Kotegaeshi isn't by any means the finish in itself as if imo you do so you follow up ...with whatever you want to follow up with or you use the pin.

Which is why I like to work through the clinch beacuse you are throwing your head at their back hand with both your hands tied up.

 

[drop bear]

Also kotegaeshi is not just an Aikido tech it is in many many arts not just Aikido

Yeah I have done a few different versions.

 

[drop bear]

All training is that way

Could you try to find a good Aikido example.

 

[now disabled]

Which is why I like to work through the clinch beacuse you are throwing your head at their back hand with both your hands tied up.

you mean when doing kotegaeshi ??? if so then you doing something you do not need to

 

[drop bear]

you mean when doing kotegaeshi ??? if so then you doing something you do not need to

Position before submission.

 

[now disabled]

Could you try to find a good Aikido example.

If you are meaning a street fight there is only one I know of and it was posted before

there are vids of Aikidoka going up against tkd guys but that will not look like Aikido as you probably think of it as really what you see in the vids online is mostly the same small group of techs all the time and they are the ones that look good at demos and are performed in the classical genre

The closest I have seen to a more shortened version of Aikido and more direct online is probably Leny sly's vids ...if you can get past him and his ummm ways lol ...