Keysi Fighting Method/Defence Lab

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts - General' started by Serpent Raptor, Jul 3, 2016.

  1. Whit

    Whit White Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2017
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3

    Oh and the kfm is from a movie/is movie fighting,KFM existed before the Nolan films and the KFM in batman is very different to KFM i've seen, same with the DL that is in the new Jack Reacher movies.
     
  2. Whit

    Whit White Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2017
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I don't even know where to begin with how incorrect this is. KFM existed before 2004, it was picked by the producers and then watered down.
    Jack Reacher uses a watered down version of Defence Lab.


    This just confirmed for me that you know little if anything about the system or how its techniques are applied.

    Never once in 2 years have i been compelled to buy any merch.


    It's clear you've never met the guy, he's not egotistic nor "craves attention".

    Nobody has questioned these techniques when they were in JKD or Suntukan all that is different is the shapes.


    I could lay into you for studying Ninjutsu and about 3 different sword forms you'll never use but i wont because I like them.
     
  3. Matt Bryers

    Matt Bryers Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2015
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Hey all,

    I thought I might add some insight to this thread, having trained with Andy Norman, the DL Crew and many of the DL practitioners around the world. From a business, branding, etc - I have nothing to comment on.

    But - in regards to Andy's talent / passion; all I can say is that Andy Norman is an innovator. He is constantly thinking, questioning, and trying to improve "what he does". Regardless if you like his system or not, I believe that there is something special and unique in the principles, mechanics, etc of Defence Lab and Keysi Fighting Method that Andy teaches.

    Despite all the "showy" stuff that people associate Defence Lab and Keysi with, there is A LOT of focus on Core Body Mechanics and Footwork. More so than I originally expected. In fact working with Andy, Grek and Paul greatly helped my footwork and overall body movement tremendously. It's hard to pick-up or see through their "marketing videos", but the top guys in Defence Lab can MOVE and FIGHT. I have witnessed this myself.

    Quick story:

    During a late night training session I had with Andy and Paul, Andy asked me to throw a cross. Now, at this time, I have a Black Belt in Japanese Jujitsu and a Black Belt in BJJ. I have fought MMA professionally, competed in Kyokushin, extensive boxing / kickboxing training, etc. I thought I could throw a punch.

    So - I threw a cross. Andy says: "no no no no, that's all wrong, look at your feet". In my mind, I was like "love this little UK guy telling me that I can't throw a punch". But, I checked my ego and listened to what he had to say. He proceeded to adjust my footwork very quickly and it made sense... I understand why what I was doing was wrong, and what he was doing was better. What that small lesson ultimately did was open my eyes to see the beauty and importance of boxing footwork. It was something that I always new was important, but it's like just glancing at a painting; compared to actually spending the time to understand the beauty of the painting.

    I am no longer involved with Defence Lab, but still train with two Defence Lab Black Belts / Keysi Fighting Method Black Belts: John Leabo and Mike Simon. But - in regards to Andy Norman as a person, the man does know his stuff, and I believe that he can help people be better martial artists.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,234
    Likes Received:
    2,903
    Trophy Points:
    403
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    Thanks for the insight Matt. Good to hear from an experienced person who has actually tried the art.

    BTW - good to see you back. Belated congrats on earning your BJJ black belt.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. Matt Bryers

    Matt Bryers Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2015
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Thanks man! Good to be back :)
     
  6. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Messages:
    27,375
    Likes Received:
    1,388
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Glad to have you back Matt!

    While I am not a fan of Defense Lab or Keysi fighting methods for a lot of reasons. Mostly that revolves around personality and or lack of skill or showiness. I will say this for Andy's teacher Bob Breen. I have respect for Bob Breen! Two may people that I know are very fond of him!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Malos1979

    Malos1979 Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2017
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Not true! You can become an instructor through an online course.

    I do think that the DL system can be a good system but it pretends to do something unique and new which is not the case.
     
  8. Matt Bryers

    Matt Bryers Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2015
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Bob Breen is the real deal. I did a private with him a couple of years ago in NY in knife combat. He is on a different level of understanding and ability.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. Matt Bryers

    Matt Bryers Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2015
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    58
    FYI - you cannot become an instructor from an online course. There is a process that you have to go through. Instructors use online resources, but ultimately they have to be certified in person... Unless that's been changed.
     
  10. Malos1979

    Malos1979 Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2017
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Probably changed, since they approached me to become an instructor and you could learn all you needed from their online university, so yes you can with Defence Lab

    Below are some quotes from the mailexchange with Rich from DL when I asked them what the cost was, he was really nice and patient and answered all my questions regarding DL.

    This doesn't mean DL is crap, no it means they changed their way of putting it out into the market. If this produces good instructors, time will tell.....
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  11. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Messages:
    27,375
    Likes Received:
    1,388
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    It is crap in my opinion to promote anyone from online training. Online training can be a great supplement for someone regularly training with an instructor but it is a poor replacement as your overall instruction method. Two many small details are missed unless the person designing it is very, very, very careful.
     
  12. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    9,928
    Likes Received:
    1,215
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    It is irrelevant how careful the designer may be. It puts the onus on the student to catch his own errors, which is extremely unlikely and not a good teaching model.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Martial D

    Martial D Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    596
    Likes Received:
    133
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I had actually never heard of this, so I just spent the last few hours researching it and watching some technique breakdowns and promotional material.

    On it's face it looks impractical and broken. If my opponent hands are glued to his forehead, I know where his strikes are coming from. If he is taught to 'load' them in an exaggerated manner, I know when they are coming. Perfect for movie choreography I would imagine, to make sure nobody got hurt.

    However I reserve final judgement until I get to spar a trained keysi guy.
     
  14. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Messages:
    27,375
    Likes Received:
    1,388
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    I totally agree with that. Even if the designer is incredibly careful and includes the tiny details often missed on video training the onus is absolutely 100% on the student catching their errors and correcting them. Which we both know is very hard to do without a qualified instructor there to constantly correct an error before it becomes a hard to correct bad habit!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Paul_D

    Paul_D Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    393
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    England
    I recently did some Defence Lab on a seminar, it's the second time I've had a go at it. It was pretty much the same as the first time, the focus was on being attacked by multiple assailants, his time in a nightclub. The instructor erroneously suggested that if you are attacked it will most likely involve more than one attacker. Clearly he hasn't done his research as the crime statiscts of England/Wales do not show his to be the case, 60-70% of all violent crimes involves one attacker (depending in which years statistics you are looking at.) So statistically the opposite is true, you are less likely to be attacked by more than one person.

    Domestic violence for example has one attacker in over 90% of situations but then I doubt victims of domestic abuse (who need SD skills of recognising the warning signs of a potentially abusive relationship) fit the target market for DL. Whilst I have no specific issue with what they teach, for fighting, that is what it is for, men fighting in pubs/clubs/the street. It isn't for the wider arena of SD, so I I think it would be more accurate if they called themselves Pub Fight Lab rather than Defence Lab. As Matt says, there is a lot of focus on footwork and body mechanics; which isn't much use to your Gran if she's worried about having her handbag stolen.
     
  16. Malos1979

    Malos1979 Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2017
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not following any online crappy training, I simply don't believe in online training in any form, I would never train any other way than I did in the past and thats with a proper teacher.

    I'm just saying, we will see if DL will survive with their online program. It does feel a bit like they want to expand as quick as possible so they are offering people shortcuts
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Matt Bryers

    Matt Bryers Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2015
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    58
    This I wholeheartedly agree with. You can LEARN a lot from online training - but promotion.... NO WAY.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page

Search tags for this page
andy norman martial arts
,
defence lab melbourne
,
defence lab or keysi justo
,

defence lab review

,
defence lab vs keysi
,
defense lab
,
difference between keysi kfm and defence labs
,
is defence lab any good
,
keysi
,
keysi defence lab forum
,
keysi fighting method belts
,
keysi figthing method belt rank
,
what is lab fine fighting method
,
why did keysi foghting system disbain