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Dark Kenpo Lord

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tsunami said:
geez you guys are uptight. To most people kenpo is a hand art. You can extraplelate ground applications and I will not get out of Kenpo because I love it and still have alot to explore. This however does not make Kenpo the best wrestling stye known to man. Nor is Kenpo a highly weapon oriented art as is Kali.

George


Either find another art, or find another instructor that will show you what Kenpo is to alot of us, and quit going on about your lack of motivation and/or training, alot of us don't have the problem YOU seem to have.


DarK LorD
 
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tsunami

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Either find another art, or find another instructor that will show you what Kenpo is to alot of us, and quit going on about your lack of motivation and/or training, alot of us don't have the problem YOU seem to have.


DarK LorD


I guess that personaly attacking me works better than giving me a good example of how YOU would use a kenpo tech on the ground. I may lack knowlage but that is about it.

Have a super day.
 

Doc

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tsunami said:
geez you guys are uptight. To most people kenpo is a hand art. You can extraplelate ground applications and I will not get out of Kenpo because I love it and still have alot to explore. This however does not make Kenpo the best wrestling stye known to man. Nor is Kenpo a highly weapon oriented art as is Kali.

George

Well George, thank you for your description of the extent of your kenpo training and skill. Your statement seems to be rather definitve, so I'll simply suggest you find an instructor in Ed Parker's Kenpo who may expand on your knowledge and skills. There are many who do not share your limited view of what some interpretations of Kenpo have to offer. I wish you success if you choose to search, however you should not assign your limitations to an entire art and its many teachers and students, unless you consider yourself to know all that Ed Parker Sr. knew and taught to his many students.
 

Dark Kenpo Lord

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tsunami said:
I guess that personaly attacking me works better than giving me a good example of how YOU would use a kenpo tech on the ground. I may lack knowlage but that is about it.

Have a super day.


I could give you many examples of how I would use a Kenpo technique on the ground, but that subject is old hat. If you'd like that answer, simply do a search here and find them. Your naiveness of Kenpo is not our problem, it's yours, and you're the only one who can change it. If you lack knowledge, admit it, which you have done, but don't take our suggestions as a personal attack, hell, I don't even know you to get personal.

DarK LorD
 

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tsunami said:
That's cool and I get it. See ya.
George,
I don't think you do get it. As a member of the staff, I normally stay out of the topics that are hot buttons; but, one of my moderators brought this thread to my attention. While I disagree sometimes with the way Clyde and Doc say things, there message is essentially correct. Not all Kenpo instructors teach weapons and ground fighting, for different reasons. Some may have not been taught, others may have no interest. For example, I do not generally teach weapons to anyone under black. My reasoning for this is simple, the skills I was taught were primarily for deadly force encounters only. I do not want to pass those skills on to someone who is not fully prepared for the consequences. Does this mean I cannot teach them? No. It means, I don't, at least yet. For those that are interested in the stick work, I have a FMA instructor that comes in once a week for sticks and knives. He occasionally gets irritated with me for interrupting him. For example, about a month ago, he was doing a passing drill when I broke in and said, "Ok this is Leaping Crane without the kick". As for grappling, and this is a sticky subject, most simply are not taught. When I originally started in Kenpo, I was also taught Jui-Jutsu because "Kenpo doesn't have groun fighting." Many years later, with much self discovery and some better instruction, I have found that the ground fighting "Kenpo doesn't have" is actually very cleverly imbedded within the art. I went outside the art, involuntarily, to find out what was in it. The only thing that limits Kenpo is the instructor and your own view point. Remember Infinite Insights Volume I, Chapter I, page 1. "Three points of view to every situation."
 

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pete said:
Its not the circular movements being challenged, but the emphasis on BIG.

I try to keep most of my circles in the techniques and extensions smaller and tighter by locking and controling joints in sequence, thereby needing less motion and exposure on my part to manipulate my attacker.

If you mean BIG circles for continuous striking sequences, i still try to keep them small, more as a natural flow from changes in stance driven by the hips than as BIG circular arm movements.

Where do you see advantages or applications of BIG circles in kenpo... they are there and have their place, just that i don't see them as prevalent as smaller tighter circles.

thanks for the conversation...

pete

Big circles are a necessity. It just depends on how long someone has been doing them and if they are done correctly.
 

TwistofFat

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Doc said:
Big circles are a necessity. It just depends on how long someone has been doing them and if they are done correctly.
Couldn't agree more. I spent years trying to make my circles tighter and closer to my body...and started to resemble an alligator. I have noticed in many live drills the requirement to "go big" on my circles on occassion to make sure uke is where I what him to be (or me not to be where he wants me...). Now, I just need someone to tell where to stop!

Regards - Glenn.
 

pete

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Doc said:
Big circles are a necessity. It just depends on how long someone has been doing them and if they are done correctly.
doc, i'm glad that you've weighed in on this... i did say that big circles have their place in kenpo, and with you saying they are a necessity i'd like to explore their correct applications.

first, to define big vs small circles...
how about 'big' being a movement that relies on shoulder rotation and the hands moving outside the dimensions of your body
and "small' relying on wrist rotation and keeping your hands in close.

i think of the applications as if it were a 3 wheels... i am the first wheel, with my energy coming from my center (the hub) out to my extremities (the rim). the second wheel exists between me and my opponent when we are engaged, which is different for big circles vs small ones.
in a small circle, my force would be moving from a hub outward to the rim. in a big circle, my energy moving inward from a rim towards a hub. picture it as either tuning a steering wheel from the outside rim vs center.
the third wheel is my opponent, which i want to penetrate inward from the rim to his hub, or attack his center.

so to give some examples, we have spiraling wrist/twig using the first wheel (yourself) turning to power a second wheel as a small circle. this turns the wrist (hub) and controls of the elbow to move his shoulder (rim). the third wheel is your opponent who is now being controlled through his shoulder, down his spine (a spoke?) to his center. in this technique, another small circle follows that movement to apply the wrist lock.

circling wing using a series of small circles to manipulate the attacker to the right, then left, and back right again.

flight to freedom uses a big circle to move the attacker from the wrist through his shoulder, without the elbow being controlled. in this case that middle wheel needs to be a big circle, moving his wrist as the rim down to his shoulder as the hub.

big circles may also be needed to open up his center as a target, in some techniques like hooking wings' figure-8 hammer-backfists can go through the face in a larger style to clear his arms.

i feel that while larger circles may be necessary for specific applications, they do expose you to easier counters, less control, and slower movement (or maybe more movement which would take longer?) and that kenpo favors smaller circles to avoid some of these consequences, unless it is necessary.

doc, please elaborate on this and correct me where i may be wrong~

thanks,
pete
 
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tsunami

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To Dark Lord, Doc and Seig. I have admittedly made several mistakes and false assumptions on this thread. Some of which include, posts tailored to syle of responses rather than content, assuming a broader range of knowlage than I actually have and slipping into a "we have not done it that way" mind set. I will in the future try to keep all of these in mind when posting. I'd like to think that I will admit it when I make mistakes. In this case, to my own detrement I did not open my eyes sooner. This is what I should have posted instead of the lackluster "I got it" post.

Respectfully, George
 

Dark Kenpo Lord

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tsunami said:
To Dark Lord, Doc and Seig. I have admittedly made several mistakes and false assumptions on this thread. Some of which include, posts tailored to syle of responses rather than content, assuming a broader range of knowlage than I actually have and slipping into a "we have not done it that way" mind set. I will in the future try to keep all of these in mind when posting. I'd like to think that I will admit it when I make mistakes. In this case, to my own detrement I did not open my eyes sooner. This is what I should have posted instead of the lackluster "I got it" post.

Respectfully, George
Now, with that in mind, what else would you like to discuss, the floor is yours and I'd be happy to answer any questions in a civil manner.

DarK LorD
 

Dark Kenpo Lord

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Doc said:
Big circles are a necessity. It just depends on how long someone has been doing them and if they are done correctly.
If you wouldn't mind, could you give us an example where big circles are a necessity, ie. what techniques, sets, etc.?

DarK LorD
 

Touch Of Death

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Dark Kenpo Lord said:
If you wouldn't mind, could you give us an example where big circles are a necessity, ie. what techniques, sets, etc.?

DarK LorD
The shoulders are a great place to use big circles. It optimizes the distal.
Sean
 
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tsunami

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Now, with that in mind, what else would you like to discuss, the floor is yours and I'd be happy to answer any questions in a civil manner.

DarK LorD

This question is off thread and might be an old one, but I would like to take advantage of your offer. What are your thoughts on why short 3 does the complete right half before mirroring itself on the left. Where long 3, forms 4,5,6 and even staff set mirrors each technique individually? It is another way of mirroring but I have a feeling there is more to the story.

George
 

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tsunami said:
Now, with that in mind, what else would you like to discuss, the floor is yours and I'd be happy to answer any questions in a civil manner.

DarK LorD

This question is off thread and might be an old one, but I would like to take advantage of your offer. What are your thoughts on why short 3 does the complete right half before mirroring itself on the left. Where long 3, forms 4,5,6 and even staff set mirrors each technique individually? It is another way of mirroring but I have a feeling there is more to the story.

George
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16544

The thead I pasted is quite long, but it may answer your question. "Doc" has a post on the last page as of yesterday that tells the story, I couldn't have said it better than that post, and it's a position I've also advocated for years. Here is a cut & paste of it.

Excerpts from the Diary of a "Mad" Kenpo Scientist
”The Ambidexterity Myth”
By
Ron Chapél, Ph.D.

Over the years there have been significant misconceptions regarding the efficacy of right and left side training. A great deal of discussion exists relative to whether forms performances, and self-defense techniques are or should be right, left, or balanced in teaching and training execution.

The simple truth is all are correct in certain respects, and the confusion like many other topics, comes from the progenitor himself. Mr. Parker spent a considerable amount of time looking into the concept and reached some rather interesting conclusions in our own research and discussions.

As a forms example, in most versions of Ed Parker’s Short Form Two, it does indeed include the physical left side in its right side presentation. But, it is still considered, by Ed Parker’s definition as explained to me, to be the right side, or what he quietly called right side brain dominant. However you do not reverse the synaptic and cerebellar pathway responsibilities for movement until the actual mirror image is performed.

This is what Parker meant by left side. The physical left is only motion or movement, but the true left side is an opposite or reversal of brain dominance and control. Thus all forms encompass in some manner right and left side, but to begin from the opposite side or mirror image reverses all mental functions and changes muscle response significantly enough to have significant influence on function.

Whether this is necessary in teaching is dependent on how you teach or train. Ed Parker created a series of conceptually right-handed techniques. He himself was not ambidextrous, nor was he working to become that way. His goal was physical competency in the physical interaction of the activity. And those who borrow sport concepts like cross training seem to put more value into ambidexterity than those who concentrate on self-defense as he did.

Although in his commercial schools he encouraged left & right training for a variety of reasons, he recognized in self defense, competence was more important than performing left and right equally well. He knew that practicing both sides can yield benefits, but he also knew right & left would never be equal. Either way the operative phrase is mirror image execution, to activate both sides of the brain to create balance in any kind of physical training.

In Ed Parker’s self-defense philosophy however, training should be based on a curriculum of well thought out systematically principled and progressive techniques. The mechanisms inherent in the process are designed to emphasize situational effectiveness with ambidexterity irrelevant to function. Movements should be performed on both sides to demonstrate effective basic skills generated by both sides of the brain with their own unique synaptic pathways. But, self-defense techniques are about competence and effectiveness within the sequence first, and emphasis must be place there as a top priority.

Of course basic skills should be raised to an acceptable level of effectiveness, but the goal of balance in the execution of self-defense techniques in their mirror image is unnecessary, time consuming, and not physically possible when it comes to equity.

The teachers who preach this both sides technique execution perspective themselves are not equally proficient on both sides. Most traditional styles and disciplines and even western boxing have techniques and moves used only from the left or right side. Most styles promote a left side forward to allow use of the right (strong) hand and leg from the rear. Even when the techniques change they still favor the right side. Even in those schools that promote equal side proficiency it is never, nor is it possible to be actually achieved.

The reasons it is not possible are physiological involving a mental interaction with the body’s ability to perform. Each side of the body is controlled by opposite sides of the brain. For example, when learning a left kick, a synaptic pathway must be created or established through the right side of the brain and vice versa. No matter how you train, the left and right pathways will never be identical in function. Even though the two sides of the brain function together, they do not have identical ways of performing the same function. They may produce identical physical movement, but how the movements are produced and controlled from the brain are very different.

Additionally the human body is not mathematically symmetrical in the true sense of the term. It is normal in human anatomy for one leg or arm to be longer than the other, and even different in diameter. Every muscle, tendon, cartilage, and even hair growth varies from side to side. World-class athletes do not stride, jump, throw, or move the same on both sides of the body. What is even more interesting is when an athlete is trained to be exactly symmetrical in their execution; it has been shown that physical performance actually declines overall. The body may be visually aesthetically symmetrical, but not precisely physically or mathematically.

Most have unreasonable expectations with regard to weak side performance. If we anticipate we can train the weak side to perform equally with the strong, we are mistaken. Because of how the brain works, you cannot attain the exact same degree of skill on both sides. It would be like attempting to teach yourself to write equally as well with both hands. You may achieve an acceptable level on the weak side but the strong will always be better and dominant.

Human beings have a natural physical preference to have a dominant side that is predetermined at birth. Even in cases where a person has activity dedicated dominance, they are always opposite of each other. I have a student who writes on one side, throws on the other, and still in baseball, bats opposite his dominant throwing side. But these activities are still functionally dedicated. He can’t write, bat, or throw equally with both. This dominance is so strong in human behavior; it cannot be overcome by external training.

In the Chinese Martial Sciences, students are taught opposite most other later martial art disciplines with the strong side forward for practicality. In examining the basic idea of most techniques, they can be executed on the prescribed side or they can be executed in what Mr. Parker, called Half Mirror Image. That is a technique may be designed for one side attacking, however just because the attacker uses the other side or "mirror" doesn’t mean you have to react in kind with a "mirrored" response.

The self-defense techniques Thrusting Salute and Buckling Branch as kicking defenses are both interchangeable whether the right or left kick is used in the attack. In "Thrusting Salute" the attack is a front kick with the right leg, and you respond with the prescribed Default Solution to that particular assault. When the attack of a left front kick is used in "Buckling Branch," the attacker is now using the Mirror Image Assault of Thrusting Salute. However if you respond with the Default Solution to Thrusting Salute, you are in a Half Mirror Image Solution response. These attacks, although mirror opposites of each other, can be responded to with the same right handed response.

This type of training only requires one side be developed significantly to be functional. The opposite side can and will also be developed, but performing a different function. In another example, in the attack for "Delayed Sword" (a right hand), you defend by stepping back with the left foot and executing with your front (right) hand. "Attacking Mace" (again an attacking right hand), does just the opposite, defending by stepping back with the right foot. Both techniques are developed independent of each other on opposite sides of the body, but they both function quite well with either right or left side dominance. Although all of Parker’s interpretations of his art tend to be right-handed, students with left-handed dominance can, and do flourish.

But no matter how well you perform in symmetrical forms, the dominant side will always be more coordinated and controlled. However, in a fight or confrontation of significant stress, and given the choice, you will always have a preference for one side over the other.

In closing, remember all interpretations of Ed Parker’s American Kenpo should be about self-defense first. Many, specifically in America, have confused through clever marketing, sport training with self-defense training. Cross training and symmetrical performance borrowed from sport training and tradition-laden disciplines, must take a back seat to practical function and applications in reality.

For the same reasons of symmetrical dominance, with the addition of mechanical efficiency, please consider any passive non-action while opposite body parts are moving are dysfunctional in human anatomical movement, and violate this balanced perspective of anatomical movement as well.

The Ed Parker Slap check (or pak sao in Chinese), and all its many subcategories and functions are always in some manner active. To achieve certain balanced skills, it is imperative that both sides of the body be active and functional at all times, and never ever passive.

True ambidexterity is a myth and although it is worthy of pursuit, it should not overshadow the quest for practical application first. They don’t fight in tournaments they compete. On the street, right or left is irrelevant to survival. You should be capable of using both sides of your body, but not necessarily the same nor equal. Ed Parker was right handed, and so are the systems he created and influenced.-------------------------------------------------------------------------




DarK LorD
 
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tsunami

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Thank you, this is definitly a section I'm going to print out and add to my notes.

George
 

Doc

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pete said:
doc, i'm glad that you've weighed in on this... i did say that big circles have their place in kenpo, and with you saying they are a necessity i'd like to explore their correct applications.

Thank you sir for broaching the question. It is one of tremendous importance and intricacy that tends to be approached from rather simplistic positions of either “good” or just “bad.” The reality is much more complicated and always, “it depends” on the circumstances that include applications, study intent, and individual knowledge. I’m pressed for time as of late so I hope you don’t mine me rambling a bit off the top of my head.

first, to define big vs small circles...
how about 'big' being a movement that relies on shoulder rotation and the hands moving outside the dimensions of your body.

That is not a bad general perspective, but realize that the appendages are multi-articulated with joints that all function independently of each other to some extent. Therefore, there are various degrees of circular movements with each one. A “large” circle at the articulated wrist would not equate to a “large” circle at the shoulder. This factor alone requires a more specific description of every action predicated on anatomical restraints and physical intent of the application.

… and "small' relying on wrist rotation and keeping your hands in close.
If I may sir, I would like to modify that slightly and refer only to the wrist rotation, and eliminate the “hands in close” mandate. There are significant applications that fall within the parameters that occur when the appendages are significantly extended away from the torso or body, particularly in proper body “indexing.”

I think of the applications as if it were a 3 wheels... i am the first wheel, with my energy coming from my center (the hub) out to my extremities (the rim). the second wheel exists between me and my opponent when we are engaged, which is different for big circles vs small ones.
in a small circle, my force would be moving from a hub outward to the rim. in a big circle, my energy moving inward from a rim towards a hub. picture it as either tuning a steering wheel from the outside rim vs center.
the third wheel is my opponent, which i want to penetrate inward from the rim to his hub, or attack his center.

so to give some examples, we have spiraling wrist/twig using the first wheel (yourself) turning to power a second wheel as a small circle. this turns the wrist (hub) and controls of the elbow to move his shoulder (rim). the third wheel is your opponent who is now being controlled through his shoulder, down his spine (a spoke?) to his center. in this technique, another small circle follows that movement to apply the wrist lock.

circling wing using a series of small circles to manipulate the attacker to the right, then left, and back right again.

flight to freedom uses a big circle to move the attacker from the wrist through his shoulder, without the elbow being controlled. in this case that middle wheel needs to be a big circle, moving his wrist as the rim down to his shoulder as the hub.


doc, please elaborate on this and correct me where i may be wrong.
Sir it is not for me to “correct” you. You are an accomplished practitioner who has a methodology that obviously works for you and you articulate it in a way that makes this discussion possible. I would not think of telling you it is “wrong.” I will however give you my opinions on the subject

I will try to not get too specific with applications because we probably have different understandings of the methodologies. However, with regard to a technique like “Circling Wing” as an example, from my understanding when you turn toward your attacker, the big circle is required to circle over the top of the seizing hand and drop down to a “Pin” between the biceps and ribcage. If you shorten this circle, you will move his hand away and lose the “trap” necessary for the next move. Therefore, this big circle is a necessary construct of the anatomical dynamics of the technique.

For me, in “Flight to Freedom”, the elbow is controlled with the left hand and the precursor movement is, once again, a “large Circle” that comes off an obscure elbow.

i feel that while larger circles may be necessary for specific applications, they do expose you to easier counters, less control, and slower movement (or maybe more movement which would take longer?) and that kenpo favors smaller circles to avoid some of these consequences, unless it is necessary.

I suggest that everywhere that “large circles are used as a necessary ingredient to proper anatomical movement, they may not necessarily be countered, and actually provide an increased measure of control. This is easily demonstrable.

The “small circle concept” favored in some American Kenpo (not to be confused with Wally Jay’s method), is a “shorthand” quick methodology that can create skill but is not designed to be a methodology for long-term success and ingrained intuitive muscle response. Keep in mind this is not the fault of teachers or students, but is a result of the quick commercial mechanisms of the curriculum and concepts of “motion-based” Kenpo.

Let us examine, Taiji (tai Qi or tai chi) as an example. Now this training method uses many large circles as a training mechanism for the body. You train the inner body by moving the outer, sometimes in exaggerated movement toward that end. Through this method, the inner structure of the body begins to “learn” and synaptic pathways created from the exaggerated movements.

Over time, the internal body aligns itself and performs at peak levels of alignment and strength. When you add the mental aspect, that is you know and understand the applications, the body may respond internally as if you are using “large” circles from physical and mental familiarity even when you are not.

After correctly training for long periods, the body will even respond internally with no discernable external physical movement at all. This is the great misunderstanding watching Ed Parker. Often he personally used “shorthand” movement, but that was after years of large external movements to train the internal. This is probably most misunderstood an applied in the “inward block” which many “shoot” forward in a “linear” punching like action usually below the part of the body they are attempting to protect. Parker would use this to illustrate “shorthand” and students mistook it for “basics.”

Those who were around in the early sixties will remember Parker teaching inward blocks by cocking the hand with the elbow up and hand behind the ear in his “phonic” stage of teaching.

A careful study of Ed parker Sr. on film over his lifetime will show him at various stages of his own maturation process using large and small circles alike depending on application and his understanding at the time. The distinction between “training” and “application” is not lost in his movement because he understood where he was and what he was doing. Moreover, even “phonic movement” as application validity.

Bottom line, the large circles are used to train and sometimes they are used in the applications, and then again, they may not be. It always depends. However, when you need small circles, because you have trained the body internally, you may get small circle effectiveness on demand when it is appropriate.

In Taiji or Tai Chi, you find the training method that manipulates and aligns the internal body for maximum effectiveness. When you add the modern day and now elusive Quan or Chuan, you are moving to the application of these movements.

Modern or contemporary Kenpo skips the basic “training” phase of the body and moves to applications immediately without the proper external foundation to create internal efficiency.

It is simply the nature of quick functional skill acquisition. It is one training method that is popular because for some, it requires much less of a time and physical investment for advancement, and significantly less teacher scrutiny of movement and posture. The mandate here is simply, “make it work for you, and that’s all that matters.” Schools that have students who make black belt in 4, 5, or even 6 years would be considered “quick” compared to some traditional methods of training.

However, traditional methods have different goals of long-term effectiveness, as opposed to quick self-defense. With that in mind, many organizations even give black belts in two years or less while Chinese masters correct every movement, posture, and breathing with longer term solutions in mind. Here more personal discipline is needed as students are constantly corrected, and must scrutinize their own actions to comply and advance.

Done properly, the old methods can give you the effect of diablerie we are accustomed to seeing performed by “old” masters. Ed Parker however distilled the “old” methods into a modern system but it requires significant knowledge over and above most. In fact, he was the one and only expert to the labor-intensive process that I have worked hard for years to perfect myself.

Big or small circles are both necessary, and the applications will demand one or the other or even both simultaneously. However, in the execution of basics they are a necessity. Ed Parker Sr. called them “phonetic” movements. These are movements purposely exaggerated to train the inner body. These are the ABC’s of any art. From there, you move to “printed” movement. Putting the letters together in short words to begin to learn function. After that you move to “cursive or script” movement with the corners rounded and “flowing.” Even when you begin “script,” the letters flow largely and only over time do the circles began to get tighter. However, some circles MUST be large so letters may be “read” properly. Only after mastering the other stages do you move to “shorthand.” Without the other skills, effective “Shorthand” is minimal. Unfortunately, most Kenpo begins with the “shorthand” out of necessity.

However even in the motion-based Kenpo concept Parker said, “If you over extend (widen) the circle of a defensive move, you can create an offense. If you retard (close) the circle of an offensive move you can create a defense.”

Parker himself advocated “large” circles as long as they were purposeful. I think we sometimes are locked into simplistic sayings and terms that retard thinking. Dynamic physical interaction of human anatomy is too complicated for absolute concepts. We must remember they are just conceptual ideas, and are not absolute physical principles.

Pleaase excuse my rambling, now I'm back to work.

Thanks Mr. Landini
 

kenpoworks

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Great reply as usual DOC.

That particular "sound byte" ..Big circles big Trouble... has a lot to answer for in my formative "Kenpo" training.
When a teacher only teaches "shorthand" then problems will lie ahead.
Richi
 

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