doc, great response! your so called "ramblings" are more succinct than many others' well written articles... lots of information for me to put into practice. so true, i wasn't even considering this first "circle" in my example... but now that you have, it's got me thinking! is this big circle made of several smaller ones? the internal circle in your center to turn you around to face the attacker, causing outward sprirals through hips and shoulders, elbows and knees, ankles and wrists to allow that big circle to "work" in such a way that you remain well centered and structurally sound... for example, as the "trap" is set, the left hand come into the attackers eyes. if your two hands continued turning in circles (right clockwise and left counterclock), such that the 2 palms are always facing eachother, would you have stronger structure? now to continue in "circling wing", after a rising elbow to the jaw, we rotate back into a reverse stance and hammer the groin, and again the hands are rotating, but now in the opposite directions (right counterclock and left clockwise). should these smaller circles be found in all/most big circles, and do they in fact help maintain a stronger physical structure? in my limited experience, it seems that serious students tend to realize this along their way in kenpo and find different ways of addressing it. those that haven't tend to struggle more with "new" material and in improving their overall technique. you are doing a great service to the kenpo community by pointing this out for students such as myself. thank you... pete.