Judo: Sport or martial art?

[bignick]

:-offtopic

by the way i'd like to let everyone else know about my new side business to fund my martial arts activities...i'll leading safari's/hunting expeditions...we'll be going mostly after trolls, since hunting season on them just opened...but maybe get some other game as oppurtunity arises...

 

[Patrick Skerry]

So Judo died with Kano and no one else is allowed to change or modify anything?

Sorry, but no...

And on wrestling throws, perhaps you should study some wrestling.

Nick -> Yeah, playing with trolls can be good entertainment once and a while

Judo began with Dr. Kano, but it might end with the Olympic committee mangling it into a sport.

 

[bignick]

i wll ask very politely again what is your source for Kano's criticism of Mifune's judo? I would be very interested to hear about it...it would be good to have an insight like that...rather than the canned answers you spit out whenever you don't want to answer a question

 

[Andrew Green]

Yes, please point out a source written by Kano stating this.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

What is your argument whether judo is a sport or a martial art?

So far it appears all the arguments point to judo being a martial art, and not a sport.

 

[bignick]

another canned answer...everybody knows what you're doing...just give it up...

 

[Andrew Green]

So far it appears all the arguments point to judo being a martial art, and not a sport.

lol - Ok... if you say so...

anyways, please answer the question

 

[Mekugi]

OK how about this angle:
How are those techniques any different from the kata found in preliminary Kodokan Judo?

Furthermore, how do any of them come up short of anything taught in Kodokan Judo, albeit them having different flavor?

How is it that wrestling can trace itself back to Western military practices, but it isn't a martial art? Judo by itself, with regards to it's history alone (and not the history that it founded itself on), does not extend beyond being practiced by any military body past the 1900's. Greco-roman wrestling practice can be traced to the Americas and most of European military entities before the creation of Kodokan Judo. The Turkish Wrestling, for instance, goes back to the 1640's and was founded by the military as well.

Well first of all these are not kata.

Second of all these are 'take downs' and not throws.

Third of all, take downs are not worth a point in a judo tournament (or at least they never used to be).

Judo has stringent requirements of a throw, 1. balance, 2. Entry, and 3. Execution. In judo, the individual who is thrown must land on his back with speed, power and control from the thrower. Free style wrestling has 'take downs', even the suplex doesn't fit the requirements of a throw in judo.

But I'm not sure what you were asking for in the context of the question?

 

[Baytor]

:-offtopic

by the way i'd like to let everyone else know about my new side business to fund my martial arts activities...i'll leading safari's/hunting expeditions...we'll be going mostly after trolls, since hunting season on them just opened...but maybe get some other game as oppurtunity arises...

whoo hoo!:mp5:
Since the AWB is about to sunset, the hunting can get really fun!
I know I know...stay on topic

 

[Hollywood1340]

Oh, now he's getting into the witty one liners "Use a primary source on kata-guruma, Dr. Kano himself, not other interpretations of his technique." Deep dude, deep. Oh yes, I belive that is one drink as well! (See the Golden Score Thread)
http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/fieldguidetotrolls.htm

 

[Patrick Skerry]

OK how about this angle:
How are those techniques any different from the kata found in preliminary Kodokan Judo?

Furthermore, how do any of them come up short of anything taught in Kodokan Judo, albeit them having different flavor?

How is it that wrestling can trace itself back to Western military practices, but it isn't a martial art? Judo by itself, with regards to it's history alone (and not the history that it founded itself on), does not extend beyond being practiced by any military body past the 1900's. Greco-roman wrestling practice can be traced to the Americas and most of European military entities before the creation of Kodokan Judo. The Turkish Wrestling, for instance, goes back to the 1640's and was founded by the military as well.

Hi Mekugi,

Dr. Jigoro Kano designated that judo consist of: 80% randori; 17% kata; and 3% shiai, with the admonishment that "contest should not be too emphasized". (source: 'What Is Rank?' by Donn F. Draeger; and, 'The Contribution of Judo to Education' by Dr.Jigoro Kano).

The wrestling techniques demonstrated in those video clips would be equivalent to 'uchi-komi' in judo, not kata. Judoka practice their nage-waza and katame-waza independent of kata. There is 'zero' connection between Dr. Kano's Kodokan judo in 1882 and free-style wrestling, if that is what you're trying to suggest. Unlike Russian S.A.M.B.O. [SAMozashchitya Bez Oruzhiya] 'self-protection without weapons', and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which are both directly derived from Kodokan Judo, wrestling had no influence on the development of judo.

Kata contains the baseline of pure technique which represents that particular martial art; kata enables a proponent to give a dignified demonstration of the style to the unitiated; kata allows the aged to continue to practice that style; kata allows a good work out while remaining conscious of good technique; kata allows the practice of dangerous techniques safely. There is no 'kata' existing within western combat sports such as boxing or wrestling.

Those wrestling techniques are similar but, in actual practice, are quite different from the 'kosen' techniques of late 19th to early 20th century judo. Please examine the excellent manual: 'The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu (c. 1906) by H. I. Hancock, for historical reference. Kosen judo is "school boy judo" taught to elementary students in Japan at the turn of the century, because newaza was considered easy to learn.

Your quote: "Furthermore, how do any of them come up short of anything taught in Kodokan Judo, albeit them having different flavor?" regarding free-style wrestling techniques.

My response: I believe you already answered your own question - different flavor! Like chocolate & vanilla! There is a world of difference between judo and wrestling. If nothing else, it is very obvious that wrestling is strength dominated and judo (& ju-jutsu) are technique oriented, judo emphasizes 'balance' while ju-jutsu emphasizes 'leverage'.
As I already wrote in a different post, judo has stringent guidlines as to what constitutes a 'throw' in comparison to a mere 'take-down'. Kodokan judo rarely uses take-downs, these wrestling (and Russian Sambo) methods were foisted upon judo during the '72 & '76 Olympics by the Americans and the former Soviet Union. The Kodokan reluctantly included a modification of take-downs within their accepted repetoire of judo techniques in 1982.
So any free-style wrestling move comes up very short of what is taught and practiced in the Kodokan.

Regarding Lineage:

The founders of western wrestling no longer exist, nor is there any concrete documentation as to when and where it was invented, or who invented it. Same thing for 'ju-jitsu'. The origins of both wrestling and ju-jitsu are shrouded in history - but not judo! Judo origninated in 1882 by Dr. Jigoro Kano, that is a fact. It was developed out of a thousand year old martial art called ju-jitsu, there is no ambiguity here! There is a standard which maintains the integrity of judo, and that is called the Kodokan, located in Tokyo Japan. There is no equivalent for wrestling.

Wrestling is not a martial art simply because it was intentionally reduced to a combat sport as an Olympic event. Judo was never developed as a sport, Dr. Kano made that perfectly clear in several of his papers on judo!

You mentioned that "Greco-Roman wrestling practice can be traced to the Americas and most of European military entities before the creation of Kodokan judo". Is there a hidden point here? This observation is a bit ambiguous. Kodokan judo was only founded in 1882, Greco-Roman wrestling can trace its lineage back several thousand years - so what is it you are asking? Kodokan judo in 1882 and wrestling have nothing to do with each other. Kodokan judo is based on ju-jutsu, not wrestling!?
The unbroken lineage of Greco-Roman wrestling gives it more in common with Japanese Sumo, than judo.

And again, what does Turkish wrestling in the 1640s, or any wrestling for that matter, have to do with the formation of judo in 1882? Judo was created from ju-jutsu, independent of western wrestling.

As you should know, judo was developed primarily from three styles of ju-jitsu: 1. Kito-ryu (to rise and fall) ju-jutsu; 2. Tenshin Shinyo-ryu (School of the Natural Way) ju-jutsu, and 3. Sousuishita-ryu ju-jutsu. And Dr. Kano adopted the term 'judo' from Jinkinshin Judo (1700's) and called his form of ju-jutsu 'Kodokan (Place to study the Way) Judo' to distinguish it from Jinkinshin Judo.

All this you should already be familiar as a serious judo enthusiast and practitioner.

Yours in judo.

 

[bignick]

The Sophist Troll. Sophist Trolls, or "philotrolls," fancy themselves Enlightened Philosophers or Learned Experts of the highest order. Often well educated, Philotrolls are capable of speaking intelligently on a number of topics, and when the spirit moves them they can be worthwhile forum participants. Unfortunately, Sophist Trolls are an extremely hostile and intolerant species.

When confronted by opinions with which they do not agree – particularly when they do not see any means of successfully arguing their contrary views – Sophists resort (repeatedly) to a variety of intellectually dishonest tactics. Most often, this is characterized by an overly snide, condescending, patronizing attitude. Philotrolls consider anyone with whom they do not agree to be "immature," and are fond of quoting that old saw that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

When cornered they are quick to resort to personal attacks. A philotroll's bag of rhetorical tricks includes a variety of transparent ploys, such as willfully misinterpreting the opponent's words, committing Straw Man fallacies, accusing his or her opponents of engaging in the very tactics used by the philotroll, and so forth.

When engaging in their sophistry, philotrolls are among the most hypocritical and aggravating of trollkind.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

bignick - quick, bag 'im! I always wanted to study one of those philotrolls in the lab! SO fascinating. So mysterious and incomprehensible. With those weird furry little hides. Hmmmmm....!

 

[Patrick Skerry]

bignick - quick, bag 'im! I always wanted to study one of those philotrolls in the lab! SO fascinating. So mysterious and incomprehensible. With those weird furry little hides. Hmmmmm....!

So Feisty, do you think there is a conflict in the 'repechage' system with the Golden Score in judo, or that repechage works equally well with the Golden Score, as opposed to round robin or the bad point system?

 

[bignick]

dang it slipped away again...

that's the problem...they're endangered species, so i can't just kill 'em....they have to be captured alive for study

 

[Hollywood1340]

So Feisty, do you think there is a conflict in the 'repechage' system with the Golden Score in judo, or that repechage works equally well with the Golden Score, as opposed to round robin or the bad point system?

Careful now mates. As you can see the little buggah is now trying to redirect ow efforts to recapture 'im. That tactic you see theh is known as bein the biggah person. Little does he know it won't work. We got his numbah!

 

[Andrew Green]

So Juijitsu isn't a martial art because we don't know who started it... no that can't be what you are trying to say....

Wrestling isn't a martial art because it's an olympic event... no that can't be it either...

But how about Catch then? is that a martial art? How about Boxing? what about boxing? we can document who founded modern boxing? How about under the LPR, was that a martial art? Fencing?

"it is very obvious that wrestling is strength dominated and judo (& ju-jutsu) are technique oriented,"

Never trained in wrestling then have you...?

 

[bignick]

it's about time we cross the streams

 

[Patrick Skerry]

So Juijitsu isn't a martial art because we don't know who started it... no that can't be what you are trying to say....

Wrestling isn't a martial art because it's an olympic event... no that can't be it either...

But how about Catch then? is that a martial art? How about Boxing? what about boxing? we can document who founded modern boxing? How about under the LPR, was that a martial art? Fencing?

"it is very obvious that wrestling is strength dominated and judo (& ju-jutsu) are technique oriented,"

Never trained in wrestling then have you...?

Hi Andy,

There is a differece between a game, a sport, and a martial art, a contest, and physical fitness. Jumping jacks is physical fitness, can be turned into a contest, but is not a sport.
A game can have contests, but is not a sport or physical fitness.
A martial art can contain a contest, but is neither a game nor a sport, but definately contains physical fitness.
Ju-jutsu is not a game, it is not a sport, it does have physical fitness, and it does have contests.
Judo is not a game, it is not a sport, it does have contests, and it does have physical fitness.
Wrestling is a sport, it is not a game, it does have contests, it does have physical fitness, but it is not judo.
Karate is not a game, it is not a sport, it is a martial art, it does have contests, and it does have physical fitness.
A waltz is not a game, it is not a sport, it does have contests, and it does contain a minimum of physical fitness.
So, therefore, judo is not a sport!

 

[Hollywood1340]

it's about time we cross the streams

Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneoulsy and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.