Judo: Sport or martial art?

[Patrick Skerry]

The Olympics is a Sporting event. It is for top level athletes in different sports to compete. Judo is a sport. In the Olympics top level Judo athletes compete against each other. Kano wanted Judo in the Olympics... A sporting event...

Stop being so simplistic in your reasoning skills. There is a concept called 'false validation', just because Dr. Kano managed to include his judo into the western Olympic games does not make judo a sport!

What attributes does judo possess which make you inclined to believe it is a sport? Despite the fact that its founder never considered it a sport, and that the Japanese had their own sports independent of their martial arts?

 

[Patrick Skerry]

My arguement is :

"Judo is a martial art that has sporting tendencies".

Hi Mekugi,

I believe this is the approach most hard to argue against. I agree that judo has elements which can be mistaken as 'sportive', such as the shiai. A shiai is too easily mistaken for a simple contest, especially by westerners.

It is these psuedo-sport elements of judo which enabled Dr. Kano to get judo accepted into the Olympics. It seems judo can 'pass' as a sport, though, in my humble opinion, it is a martial art.

Thank you Mekugi.

 

[Andrew Green]

Stop being so simplistic in your reasoning skills. There is a concept called 'false validation', just because Dr. Kano managed to include his judo into the western Olympic games does not make judo a sport!

Me? Perhaps a look in the mirror...

What attributes does judo possess which make you inclined to believe it is a sport? Despite the fact that its founder never considered it a sport, and that the Japanese had their own sports independent of their martial arts?

You want a 2000 word essay on the neccessary and suffiecient conditions for sport?

Guess I could, but why bother...

Let's try this: What elements does Greco-Roman wrestling posses that make it a sport that Judo does not?

 

[Mekugi]

Let's try this: What elements does Greco-Roman wrestling posses that make it a sport that Judo does not?

I would say: What sporting differences does Greco-Roman wrestling have when compared to judo? Jackets and rules.
Speaking of wrestling, there is "Cornish Jacket-Wrestling", which is something like judo. On the other side of the spectrum you have "Yagli Gures" from Turkey, where they oil their bodies heavily and wear funny looking leather pants called Kispet.

To me, Greco-Roman or any variant of wrestling is a martial art.

 

[Andrew Green]

I would say: What sporting differences does Greco-Roman wrestling have when compared to judo? Jackets and rules.

Exactly...

Uniform and rules. that's really about it. They are very similar sports.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

You want a 2000 word essay on the neccessary and suffiecient conditions for sport?

Not a 2000 word essay, but just a reason why you think judo contains the necessary elements to be considered a sport? And again, in light of the fact that the founder never called his judo a sport, and that the Japanese played sports independent of their practice of martial arts.

The Temari ball is still in your court on this one Mr. Green.

Guess I could, but why bother...

One interpretation: Because you don't know?

Let's try this: What elements does Greco-Roman wrestling posses that make it a sport that Judo does not?

The lack of kata for one. The founder of judo made it clear that Judo is not a sport. What did the founder of Roman-Greco wrestling have to say?

 

[someguy]

So kata makes an martial art.
WEll I guess nothing european is a martial art.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

So kata makes an martial art.
WEll I guess nothing european is a martial art.

That's correct, a European waltz is not a martial art (just kidding, a waltz is really a martial art).

The lack of kata is only one element which designates a sport, vs. a martial art.

Roman-Greco wrestling has been reduced to a combat sport, such as boxing, track & field (javelin throw, hammer toss, discus, relay race, etc. etc.), and free style wrestling. The emphasis is on the word 'reduced'. Dr. Kano, as stated in all his papers on judo, never considered judo a sport. Jiu-jutsu may have been 'reduced' to judo, but judo remains a martial art, not a sport. Why? Again, because Japan had sports independent of its martial arts.

 

[bignick]

i don't know how the fact that country had sports proves that judo isn't a sport..what about sumo...that is a form of wrestling and a japanese martial art that now is done for the entertainment of the masses

 

[bignick]

by the way...kata does not make a martial art...lot's of japanese cultural activities use kata's such as the tea ceremony

 

[Andrew Green]

Ok... so let me get this straight...

Greco-roman wrestling is a sport.

Judo isn't a sport because it has kata.

huh?

So basically it is a sport, with a few other things that make it not a sport...

And nothing western can be a martial art... because there is no kata.

So if I took Greco-roman wrestling, made up some kata, I could say it is no longer a sport.

And you talk about an argument being non-sequitur....

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Ok... so let me get this straight...

And you talk about an argument being non-sequitur....

No, I talk about your arguments being 'non-sequitur'!

 

[Patrick Skerry]

i don't know how the fact that country had sports proves that judo isn't a sport..what about sumo...that is a form of wrestling and a japanese martial art that now is done for the entertainment of the masses

Hi Nick,

It is not that a country has sports, it is that Japan had sports alongside martial arts which supports the argument that judo is not a sport.

Both sport 'and' martial arts co-existed in ancient Japan as two separate entities. The martial arts were never considered a sport in Japan, and judo is a budo, a martial art. And again, Dr. Kano did not consider either judo or ju-jutsu to be sports! Getting judo into the Olympics was a real coup for Dr. Kano, because it got judo transported internationally. But it did not make judo a peer with hockey or baseball or gymnastics, and Dr. Kano made this extremely clear in his insightful paper: 'The Contribution of Judo to Education'.

 

[Baytor]

 

[bignick]

yes...they're being well fed...wouldn't want one to go hungry

 

[Patrick Skerry]

THE FACE OF SPORT JUDO!

 

[Andrew Green]

Not quite what he meant

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Not quiet what he meant

Not a quiet image.

 

[Mekugi]

What are these then?

http://www.bobbydouglas.com/techniquehome.html

http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtechpages/f1.html

http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtechpages/f22.html

http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtechpages/f24.html

The lack of kata is only one element which designates a sport, vs. a martial art.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

What are these then?

http://www.bobbydouglas.com/techniquehome.html

http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtechpages/f1.html

http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtechpages/f22.html

http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtechpages/f24.html

Well first of all these are not kata.

Second of all these are 'take downs' and not throws.

Third of all, take downs are not worth a point in a judo tournament (or at least they never used to be).

Judo has stringent requirements of a throw, 1. balance, 2. Entry, and 3. Execution. In judo, the individual who is thrown must land on his back with speed, power and control from the thrower. Free style wrestling has 'take downs', even the suplex doesn't fit the requirements of a throw in judo.

But I'm not sure what you were asking for in the context of the question?