Judo: Sport or martial art?

[Mekugi]

Hi Mekugi,

Dr. Jigoro Kano designated that judo consist of: 80% randori; 17% kata; and 3% shiai, with the admonishment that "contest should not be too emphasized". (source: 'What Is Rank?' by Donn F. Draeger; and, 'The Contribution of Judo to Education' by Dr.Jigoro Kano).

Note one instance where Mr. Draeger OR Mr. Kano say that wrestling is not a martial art. Mr. Kano does say boxing and wrestling are military arts:

from: The Contribution of Judo to Education by Jigoro Kano:
"This holds true with boxing, wrestling, and different kinds of military exercises practiced all over the world."

The wrestling techniques demonstrated in those video clips would be equivalent to 'uchi-komi' in judo, not kata.

Why? Uchikomi is a training exercise, not a technique. Those on Bobby Douglas' site are techniques, not "training excercises" unless you are impling that wrestling has no techniques. Moot.

Judoka practice their nage-waza and katame-waza independent of kata.

Evidently you haven't seen Judo: Formal Techniques by Mr. Draeger. I met one of the people in those photos, he lives in Vancouver B.C. Great guy.

There is 'zero' connection between Dr. Kano's Kodokan judo in 1882 and free-style wrestling, if that is what you're trying to suggest.

Read Father of Judo by Brian N. Watson. It suggests something a little different. As a matter of fact, I have heard the argument that Mr. Kano wanted to make the Japanese Jujutsu as "scientific" likw what he found in wrestling, and was greatly influenced by the sporting ideal. I think a great amount of was is being talked about were "ball sports" and gymnastics, notwrestling and boxing. Go figure.

from: The Contribution of Judo to Education by Jigoro Kano:
"Taking athletics as a whole, I cannot help thinking that they are not the ideal form of physical education, because every movement is not chosen for all around development of the body but for attaining some other definite object. And furthermore, as we generally require special equipment and sometimes quite a number of persons to participate in them, athletics are fitted as a training for select groups of persons and not as the means of improving the physical condition of a whole nation.
This holds true with boxing, wrestling, and different kinds of military exercises practiced all over the world. Then people may ask, "Are not gymnastics [calisthenics] an ideal form of national physical training?" To this I answer that they are an ideal form of physical education from their being contrived for all-round development of the body, and not necessarily requiring special equipment and participants. But gymnastics are lacking in very important things essential to the physical education of a whole nation. The defects are:

1. Different gymnastics movements have no meaning and naturally are devoid of interest.
2. No secondary benefit is derived from their training.
3. Attainment of "skill" (using the word "skill" in a special sense) cannot be sought for or acquired in gymnastics as in some other exercises."

Unlike Russian S.A.M.B.O. [SAMozashchitya Bez Oruzhiya] 'self-protection without weapons', and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which are both directly derived from Kodokan Judo, wrestling had no influence on the development of judo.[\quote]

See above.

Kata contains the baseline of pure technique which represents that particular martial art; kata enables a proponent to give a dignified demonstration of the style to the unitiated; kata allows the aged to continue to practice that style; kata allows a good work out while remaining conscious of good technique; kata allows the practice of dangerous techniques safely.

Ever seen the book "Complete Highschool Wrestling"? It as the "baseline for pure technique" in a step by step form, or kata. Bobby Douglas teaches the same thing in showing people technique. Wrestling is different, but just as much a martial art as Kodokan Judo. Define the word "Martial" and then you have the truth.

Those wrestling techniques are similar but, in actual practice, are quite different from the 'kosen' techniques of late 19th to early 20th century judo. Please examine the excellent manual: 'The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu (c. 1906) by H. I. Hancock, for historical reference. Kosen judo is "school boy judo" taught to elementary students in Japan at the turn of the century, because newaza was considered easy to learn.

Kosen means "high school" but not in the sense of like, American highschools- this is a major mistake for western readers. They are (and were) schools for specialized vocations. Colleges were Kosen Schools too, such as Kyoto University, so you're a little off base from the start. The reason that newaza became popular at the Kosen Schools was because they found that shiai without weight limits (which is what that was all about, not because it was "easy") it was almost impossible to beat a larger person with a throw. So, they looked to newaza to beat people or pull a draw. Back then, competitions were done much like wrestling meets without weight limits (again), where groups would win and not individuals. This was more in tune with the Japanese way of thinking, so it was of course, first for the group. Mr. Hancock has his history wrong, in this case. I have visited and trained with the newaza dojo in Tokyo and have researched the subject rather completely. You can also check out the Kyoto University website on the subject, which has a complete history.

Your quote: "Furthermore, how do any of them come up short of anything taught in Kodokan Judo, albeit them having different flavor?" regarding free-style wrestling techniques.

My response: I believe you already answered your own question - different flavor! Like chocolate & vanilla! There is a world of difference between judo and wrestling. If nothing else, it is very obvious that wrestling is strength dominated and judo (& ju-jutsu) are technique oriented, judo emphasizes 'balance' while ju-jutsu emphasizes 'leverage'.
As I already wrote in a different post, judo has stringent guidlines as to what constitutes a 'throw' in comparison to a mere 'take-down'. Kodokan judo rarely uses take-downs, these wrestling (and Russian Sambo) methods were foisted upon judo during the '72 & '76 Olympics by the Americans and the former Soviet Union. The Kodokan reluctantly included a modification of take-downs within their accepted repetoire of judo techniques in 1982.
So any free-style wrestling move comes up very short of what is taught and practiced in the Kodokan.

So Wrestling is a martial art. Just different, right?

Regarding Lineage:

The founders of western wrestling no longer exist, nor is there any concrete documentation as to when and where it was invented, or who invented it. Same thing for 'ju-jitsu'.

HUH? Yeah, people living 300 years ago are usually dead. There is documentation as to when many styles of Jujutsu were invented. What are you talking about?

The origins of both wrestling and ju-jitsu are shrouded in history - but not judo! Judo origninated in 1882 by Dr. Jigoro Kano, that is a fact.

Mr. Kano studied Kito ryu and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. I can tell you when both of these were created and by whom.

It was developed out of a thousand year old martial art called ju-jitsu, there is no ambiguity here! There is a standard which maintains the integrity of judo, and that is called the Kodokan, located in Tokyo Japan. There is no equivalent for wrestling.[\quote]

Are you sure what you are writing here? You just contradicted your own logic. Plus, tell me when you went to the Kodokan and asked them "exactly how are you maintaining the integrity of Judo" and you probably get blanks stares. BTW and FYI, the Olympic Judo Committee and world headquarters is in Korea.

Wrestling is not a martial art simply because it was intentionally reduced to a combat sport as an Olympic event. Judo was never developed as a sport, Dr. Kano made that perfectly clear in several of his papers on judo!

So, what is this stuff I see on the Olympics? Judo has sporting elements. That's a fact jack. It's also a martial art because it originated from MARTIAL practices. That argument does not, cannot and will not hold any water.

You mentioned that "Greco-Roman wrestling practice can be traced to the Americas and most of European military entities before the creation of Kodokan judo". Is there a hidden point here? This observation is a bit ambiguous.

Actually, my observation was objective, not ambiguous- that's why I listed who did what. The point is that MARTIAL is MILITARY. Put two and two together.

Kodokan judo was only founded in 1882, Greco-Roman wrestling can trace its lineage back several thousand years

No, Greco-roman wrestling cannot trace it's lineage back several thousand years. It's neither Greek nor Roman. Another subject.

so what is it you are asking? Kodokan judo in 1882 and wrestling have nothing to do with each other. Kodokan judo is based on ju-jutsu, not wrestling!?

I am not sure how you came up with the idea that I was saying that Jujutsu was based on European wrestling. That's a rather long stretch. Japanese Wrestling (jujutsu) indigenous to the country, like Sumo.

The unbroken lineage of Greco-Roman wrestling gives it more in common with Japanese Sumo, than judo.

See above.

And again, what does Turkish wrestling in the 1640s, or any wrestling for that matter, have to do with the formation of judo in 1882? Judo was created from ju-jutsu, independent of western wrestling.

It's wrestling, and has an ancient lineage in the military. It is similar to Greco-Roman wrestling (well, the version we do know, which is really freestyle). It is a martial art.

As you should know, judo was developed primarily from three styles of ju-jitsu: 1. Kito-ryu (to rise and fall) ju-jutsu; 2. Tenshin Shinyo-ryu (School of the Natural Way) ju-jutsu, and 3. Sousuishita-ryu ju-jutsu. And Dr. Kano adopted the term 'judo' from Jinkinshin Judo (1700's) and called his form of ju-jutsu 'Kodokan (Place to study the Way) Judo' to distinguish it from Jinkinshin Judo.

AHEM...Kano did not developed Judo out of three martial arts. Pure fabrication. He developed Kodokan Judo from KITO RYU and TENJIN SHINYO RYU with input from several different ryu at the Butokukai when formulating the "formal technques". Actually, Kano borrowed the term Judo from KITO RYU which changed it's named from Kito Ryu Kumi Uchi to Kito Ryu Judo waaaay back when. All of these things are DOCUMENTED. What you are talking about in # 3 is SOSUISHI RYU or SOSUISHITSU RYU, something I have studied for lets see, 18 years. See my website www.sosuishitsuryu.com.

All this you should already be familiar as a serious judo enthusiast and practitioner.

Yours in judo.

Umm....you might want to rethink that statement.

 

[bignick]

my, my...looks like we got ourselves another one...what a beautiful creature....crikey!!!

 

[Andrew Green]

Thanks a lot, you've just gone and killed a perfectly good play-troll... now what are we going to do for entertainment?

Oh well, maybe I'm wrong, trolls got a habbit of coming back even after they are dead...

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Note one instance where Mr. Draeger OR Mr. Kano say that wrestling is not a martial art.

Why? Uchikomi is a training exercise, not a technique. Moot.

Evidently you haven't seen Judo: Formal Techniques by Mr. Draeger. I met one of the people in those photos, he lives in Vancouver B.C. Great guy.

Read "Father of Judo" by Brian N. Watson. It suggests something a little different. As a matter of fact, I have heard the argument that Mr. Kano wanted to make the Japanese Jujutsu "scientific" as was found in wrestling. I think a great deal of what is being talked about is "ball sports", not just wrestling and boxing. Go figure.

Unlike Russian S.A.M.B.O. [SAMozashchitya Bez Oruzhiya] 'self-protection without weapons', and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which are both directly derived from Kodokan Judo, wrestling had no influence on the development of judo.[\quote]

See above.

Ever seen the book "Complete Highschool Wrestling"? It as the "baseline for pure technique" in a step by step form, or kata. Bobby Douglas teaches the same thing in showing people technique. Wrestling is different, but just as much a martial art as Kodokan Judo. Define the word "Martial" and then you have the truth.

Kosen means "high school" but not in the sense of like, American highschools- this is a major mistake for western readers. They are (and were) schools for specialized vocations. Colleges were Kosen Schools too, such as Kyoto University, so you're a little off base from the start. The reason that newaza became popular at the Kosen Schools was because they found that shiai without weight limits (which is what that was all about, not because it was "easy") it was almost impossible to beat a larger person with a throw. So, they looked to newaza to beat people or pull a draw. Back then, competitions were done much like wrestling meets without weight limits (again), where groups would win and not individuals. This was more in tune with the Japanese way of thinking, so it was of course, first for the group. Mr. Hancock has his history wrong, in this case. I have visited and trained with the newaza dojo in Tokyo and have researched the subject rather completely. You can also check out the Kyoto University website on the subject, which has a complete history.

So Wrestling is a martial art. Just different, right?

HUH? Yeah, people living 300 years ago are usually dead. There is documentation as to when many styles of Jujutsu were invented. What are you talking about?

Mr. Kano studied Kito ryu and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. I can tell you when both of these were created and by whom.

It was developed out of a thousand year old martial art called ju-jitsu, there is no ambiguity here! There is a standard which maintains the integrity of judo, and that is called the Kodokan, located in Tokyo Japan. There is no equivalent for wrestling.[\quote]

Are you sure what you are writing here? You just contradicted your own logic. Plus, tell me when you went to the Kodokan and asked them "exactly how are you maintaining the integrity of Judo" and you probably get blanks stares. BTW and FYI, the Olympic Judo Committee and world headquarters is in Korea.

So, what is this stuff I see on the Olympics? Judo has sporting elements. That's a fact jack. It's also a martial art because it originated from MARTIAL practices. That argument does not, cannot and will not hold any water.

Actually, my observation was objective, not ambiguous- that's why I listed who did what. The point is that MARTIAL is MILITARY. Put two and two together.

No, Greco-roman wrestling cannot trace it's lineage back several thousand years. It's neither Greek nor Roman. Another subject.

I am not sure how you came up with the idea that I was saying that Jujutsu was based on European wrestling. That's a rather long stretch. Japanese Wrestling (jujutsu) indigenous to the country, like Sumo.

See above.

It's wrestling, and has an ancient lineage in the military. It is similar to Greco-Roman wrestling (well, the version we do know, which is really freestyle). It is a martial art.

AHEM...Kano did not developed Judo out of three martial arts. Pure fabrication. He developed Kodokan Judo from KITO RYU and TENJIN SHINYO RYU with input from several different ryu at the Butokukai when formulating the "formal technques". Actually, Kano borrowed the term Judo from KITO RYU which changed it's named from Kito Ryu Kumi Uchi to Kito Ryu Judo waaaay back when. All of these things are DOCUMENTED. What you are talking about in # 3 is SOSUISHI RYU or SOSUISHITSU RYU, something I have studied for lets see, 18 years. See my website www.sosuishitsuryu.com.

Umm....you might want to rethink that statement.

Hi Russ,

Out of context and begging the question as usual I read. You need to do some more research. Look up this word: HOPOLOGY, this might help you out. Then take a course on English literature and logic, and see your optometrist, it might help you to stop mis-reading the English language.

Dr. Kano developed judo from three or more styles of ju-jutsu.

Uchi-komi is training exercise, just like those training exercises shown in the wrestling video clips. Uchi-komi is not kata, and wrestling contains no Kata.

There is ample documention on the formation of judo - look it up!

The word martial means warlike, as in the martial arts, judo is a martial art - not a sport!

The kodokan is located in Tokyo, not Korea, as I clearly wrote.

Wrestling had nothing to do with the development of judo.

I doubt very much that Donn F. Draeger wrote anything about wrestling.

Before you start bragging about 18 years of ju-jutsu experience, make sure you have 18 years of higher education to back up your opinions on judo.

 

[bignick]

and where is your proof of 18 years of higher education on judo...

Out of context and begging the question as usual I read. You need to do some more research. Look up this word: HOPOLOGY, this might help you out. Then take a course on English literature and logic, and see your optometrist, it might help you to stop mis-reading the English language.

why are you attacking, no one is being negative with you...you asked for discussion and he provided it...and you attack him...play nice...or nobody will play with you anymore

 

[Patrick Skerry]

my, my...looks like we got ourselves another one...what a beautiful creature....crikey!!!

OH GOD, IT HAS A BLUE GI AND A CAPE - THE FUTURE OF SPORT JUDO!

 

[bignick]

and strangely enough resembles you

 

[Patrick Skerry]

and strangely enough resembles you

I do kind of resemble Steve Irwin.

 

[bignick]

i'm sure steve doesn't appreciate that comparison...

 

[Mekugi]

Hi Russ,

Out of context and begging the question as usual I read. You need to do some more research. Look up this word: HOPOLOGY, this might help you out. Then take a course on English literature and logic, and see your optometrist, it might help you to stop mis-reading the English language.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
I do know that you are gettng upset, and when you're wrong, that's normal. I have painted you into a corner and now you are going to be agry and apprehensive. It's nothing personal, so no need to be acting as such.

Dr. Kano developed judo from three or more styles of ju-jutsu.

Two. Sorry, try again, it's documented. He did have help from other ryu, but the core is made up of Tenjin Shinyo ryu and Kito Ryu. You may try www.judoinfo.com to start.

from:History of Kodokan Judo found at :http://www.judoinfo.com/jhist3.htm:
"Later he studied under Hachinosuke Fukuda (note: the grandfather of Keiko Fukuda, 8th dan, who is the highest woman judoka alive) and Masatomo Iso of the Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, and Tsunetoshi Iikubo of the Kito Ryu, and was initiated into the secrets of both schools. Then he established his own school, named Kodokan, in 1882 and began to teach his own exercise calling it Judo instead of jujitsu. He was then twenty three years old and one of the faculty of the Gakushuin, the Peers' school."

Uchi-komi is training exercise, just like those training exercises shown in the wrestling video clips. Uchi-komi is not kata, and wrestling contains no Kata.

Uchikomi means "repatative hitting" and as the name suggests, it is usually practiced as a repitition. I have seen it for katame and nage waza. Thanks, try again. What you see on Bobby Douglas' page is NOT uchikomi.

There is ample documention on the formation of judo - look it up!

Take your own advise. Please, out of all honesty. Attacking Ad Hominem will not make your information any less errored.

[/quote]The word martial means warlike, as in the martial arts, judo is a martial art - not a sport![/quote]You are reaching now and it's a little deeper than you think (see below). Then, holding true to your statement and logic in the above posts: wrestling should NEVER be classified as a SPORT and KODOKAN JUDO is NEVER a MARTIAL ART.
mar·tial (mär

sh

l)
adj.

1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior

The kodokan is located in Tokyo, not Korea, as I clearly wrote.

I think you need to look here: http://www.ijf.org/
The International Judo Federation, the GOVERNING BODY for judo worldwide. The Kodokan belongs to them, as well.

I NEVER said that the Kodokan was in Korea. Where are you getting this?

Wrestling had nothing to do with the development of judo.

Umm, try Kata Guruma. Directly lifted from a book Mr. Kano was researching. It was also a technique found in other ryu of Jujutsu, but the one that Mr. Kano found happened to be from GRECO-ROMAN WRESTLING.

I doubt very much that Donn F. Draeger wrote anything about wrestling.

Ever heard of the International Hoplology Society? You doubt in error.

Before you start bragging about 18 years of ju-jutsu experience, make sure you have 18 years of higher education to back up your opinions on judo.

Umm??? What? You certainly do not and it shows if I can just take your posts apart like this, for the second time. Is this what you are reduced to?

 

[Andrew Green]

Do you even know what "kata" means...? cause by the sounds of it you don't.

Yet you are using it as the reason Judo is not a sport...

Wrestling has kata, as does boxing, fencing, and every other western martial art. Only they don't use that name, because we aren't Japanese.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
I do know that you are gettng upset, and when you're wrong, that's normal. I have painted you into a corner and now you are going to be agry and apprehensive. It's nothing personal, so no need to be acting as such.

Two. Sorry, try again, it's documented. you may try www.judoinfo.com to start.

Uchikomi means "repatative hitting" and as the name suggests, it is usually practiced as a repitition. I have seen it for katame and nage waza. Thanks, try again. What you see on Bobby Douglas' page is NOT uchikomi.
Take your own advise. Please, out of all honesty. Attacking Ad Hominem will not make your information any less erred.

The word martial means warlike, as in the martial arts, judo is a martial art - not a sport![/quote]You are reaching now and it's a little deeper than you think (see below). Then, holding true to your statement and logic in the above posts: wrestling should NEVER be classified as a SPORT and KODOKAN JUDO is NEVER a MARTIAL ART.
mar·tial (mär

sh

l)
adj.

1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior

I think you need to look here: http://www.ijf.org/
The International Judo Federation, the GOVERNING BODY for judo worldwide. The Kodokan belongs to them, as well.

I NEVER said that the Kodokan was in Korea. Where are you getting this?

Umm, try Kata Guruma. Directly lifted from a book Mr. Kano was researching. It was also a technique found in other ryu of Jujutsu, but the one that Mr. Kano found happened to be from GRECO-ROMAN WRESTLING.

Ever heard of the International Hoplology Society? You doubt in error.

Umm??? What? You certainly do not and it shows if I can just take your posts apart like this, for the second time. Is this what you are reduced to?[/QUOTE]Hi Russ,

Sorry to get testy, I have little patience for dillitentes, and that is the impression you gave with your constant rationalizations.

Yes, quite true, the International Judo Federation is the world governing body for judo, so can you explain why the All Japan Judo Federation, which is a member, refuses to adhere to the blue gi rule or the Golden Score demanded by the IJF when the AJJF runs the All Japan Judo Championships?

Dr. Kano lifted Kata-Guruma from a book on Greco-Roman wrestling? Yet it also happened to exist in Daito-ryu Akijitsu prior to Kano's birth, but in his detailed study of ju-jutsu, Dr. Kano never came across the ju-jutsu version of kata-guruma?. Just based on your dogmatic assertion that Dr. Kano got the idea from a book on Greco-Roman wrestling? This theory needs a lot of work.

If you are in Japan, could you call, or visit, the Kodokan and ask for Mr. Naoka Murata, 7th Dan, the Curator and Professor of the Kodokan Judo Museum, and ask him, as I have done, for a definition of 'Kosen' judo, and you might get a slightly different answer than the one you supplied.

Thank God http://www.judoinfo.com is back online.

What is your source for your fixation on Greco-Roman wrestling and judo? They have nothing to do with each other?

Referring to wrestlers practicing their moves as 'kata' is a sheer misnomer. There is no kata in free style wrestling.

Free style wrestling has been intentionally reduced to a combative sport, but judo has not. Neither the Kodokan nor the AJJF have acquiesed to the IJF entirely.

Thank you for your feedback, it tells me a lot about the knowledge of hopology of long practicing martial artists.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Do you even know what "kata" means...? cause by the sounds of it you don't.

Yet you are using it as the reason Judo is not a sport...

Wrestling has kata, as does boxing, fencing, and every other western martial art. Only they don't use that name, because we aren't Japanese.

The same question might also be put to you - do YOU even know what kata means?

Boxing, wrestling, fencing, do not have kata - it is something unique to the Asian martial arts, and a source of confusion to the Western practitioners of combative sports.

There are some good threads here on martialtalk on the meaning of 'kata' for me to supply such a basic to an alleged judo enthusiast.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

and where is your proof of 18 years of higher education on judo...



why are you attacking, no one is being negative with you...you asked for discussion and he provided it...and you attack him...play nice...or nobody will play with you anymore

Odd advice from someone who swore twice that he would not bother to come back to this thread?

 

[Mekugi]

Dr. Kano lifted Kata-Guruma from a book on Greco-Roman wrestling? Yet it also happened to exist in Daito-ryu Akijitsu prior to Kano's birth, but in his detailed study of ju-jutsu, Dr. Kano never came across the ju-jutsu version of kata-guruma?

That's the story, it comes from Father of Judo. Apparently, he never saw Daito Ryu. BTW, the lineage of Daito ryu starts and stops with Takeda Sokaku, for historical arguments.

Just based on your dogmatic assertion that Dr. Kano got the idea from a book on Greco-Roman wrestling? This theory needs a lot of work.

It came from the Kodokan Archives.

If you are in Japan, could you call, or visit, the Kodokan and ask for Mr. Naoka Murata, 7th Dan, the Curator and Professor of the Kodokan Judo Museum, and ask him, as I have done, for a definition of 'Kosen' judo, and you might get a slightly different answer than the one you supplied.

Apperantly you speak Japanese, as far as I know none of the staff at the KJM speak ANY English unless that has changed in the last 4 years. I see you have the Kodokan Dictionary of Judo Kawamura & Daigo, however, and probably visited http://www.bestjudo.com/brkodokandictionary.shtml for that direct copy and paste. I have spoken to the International Staff and to the staff in the library at the Kodokan regarding SSR, so yeah if I REALLY wanted to call them I could, but I don't have any questions. That being said, I KNOW Koto Semmon Gakko were and are technical "highschool" and colleges and you MAY want to look that up again, and bounce here:

http://www.gws.ne.jp/home/demo2/indexe.html

http://www.kusu.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~judo/history-e.htm

http://www.fulbright.jp/e4/ayjcont3.html <--this is from the Fullbright Institute.

What is your source for your fixation on Greco-Roman wrestling and judo? They have nothing to do with each other?

It was about Judo being a Martial Art, and Wrestling being a martial art. IMHO they are both martial arts.

This thread was whether Judo was a martial art.

Still is. We are into "what is a martial art" now.

Referring to wrestlers practicing their moves as 'kata' is a sheer misnomer. There is no kata in free style wrestling.

Kata is translated roughly is FORM or MOVEMENTS. The techniques of wrestling are all based on technique, form, and movements. It's part of wrestling and how it is taught, just like any other martial art. There are techniques, there are forms to the techniques with henka (variation), and there is movement that are pre-arranged and shown that way. Needles to say, a pre-arranged set of movements is a form, and it is by it's own definiton, a kata. BTW...JKD isn't a martial art then? Under this definition.

Free style wrestling has been intentionally reduced to a combative sport, but judo has not. Neither the Kodokan nor the AJJF have acquiesed to the IJF entirely.

Ever train in Japan? Why do you think it is that you have to compete and win to promote in Judo? Judo is definately seen as a sport and the Kodokan does promote it as a sport (especially in public education). Martial arts are seen as sports here, for the most-part, sad but true.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

That's the story, it comes from Father of Judo. Apparently, he never saw Daito Ryu. BTW, the lineage of Daito ryu starts and stops with Takeda Sokaku, for historical arguments.


It came from the Kodokan Archives.

Apperantly you speak Japanese, as far as I know none of the staff at the KJM speak ANY English unless that has changed in the last 4 years. I see you have the Kodokan Dictionary of Judo Kawamura & Daigo, however, and probably visited http://www.bestjudo.com/brkodokandictionary.shtml for that direct copy and paste. I have spoken to the International Staff and to the staff in the library at the Kodokan regarding SSR, so yeah if I REALLY wanted to call them I could, but I don't have any questions. That being said, I KNOW Koto Semmon Gakko were and are technical "highschool" and colleges and you MAY want to look that up again, and bounce here:

http://www.gws.ne.jp/home/demo2/indexe.html

http://www.kusu.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~judo/history-e.htm

http://www.fulbright.jp/e4/ayjcont3.html <--this is from the Fullbright Institute.

It was about Judo being a Martial Art, and Wrestling being a martial art. IMHO they are both martial arts.

Still is. We are into "what is a martial art" now.

Kata is translated roughly is FORM or MOVEMENTS. The techniques of wrestling are all based on technique, form, and movements. It's part of wrestling and how it is taught, just like any other martial art. There are techniques, there are forms to the techniques with henka (variation), and there is movement that are pre-arranged and shown that way. Needles to say, a pre-arranged set of movements is a form, and it is by it's own definiton, a kata. BTW...JKD isn't a martial art then? Under this definition.

Ever train in Japan? Why do you think it is that you have to compete and win to promote in Judo? Judo is definately seen as a sport and the Kodokan does promote it as a sport (especially in public education). Martial arts are seen as sports here, for the most-part, sad but true.

Hello Russ,

Many Thanks. I won't press you on why the All Japan Judo Association ignores it's governing body, the IJF, by not using a blue gi or Golden Score in AJJF sanctioned shiai's in Japan. Thanks for the links.

P.S. I don't have the 'Kodokan Dictionary of Judo' but I was told by English speakers at the Kodokan that Prof. Murata was involved in a big dictionary project.

 

[bignick]

Odd advice from someone who swore twice that he would not bother to come back to this thread?

no i said i wasn't coming back to this thread once...i said wasn't gonna go back to your "blue gi" thread and i won't because that debate is childish and if you want to help improve the state of judo, you're focusing on the wrong things...

as for my return...i was off on another one of those safari's that i guide...but then i came back here to fertile hunting grounds

 

[Hollywood1340]

Wow...it's amazing how people can CONTINUE to belive they are right. I see now our troll is now insulting the grammer of us 'unters when he can't go head to head with the content of the argument. So once and for all Mr. Skerry
WHAT IS YOUR JUDO EDUCATION AND WHO ARE YOUR INSTRUCTORS? It's a simple question, it's a simple answer.

 

[Mekugi]

http://www.judo.or.jp/

...why the All Japan Judo Association ignores it's governing body, the IJF, by not using a blue gi or Golden Score in AJJF sanctioned shiai's in Japan....

 

[auxprix]

Hey, guys! did I miss the fun?

Patrick:

What the hell is your occupation, and how can I get into it? I've never met anyone who had so much free time. I, of course, would use it for something constructive (like increasing MA training), but that's your prerogative.

I'm going to be honest, I didn't read all of your posts. You have a way of using alot of words to say very little. So I skimmed some of them. Just to let you know, other MT members do not enjoy reading your posts as much as you do.

You put alot of weight on what Kano has written, and there is a fundimental problem with this. Kano is dead, and dead people cannot clarify or change their opinions. As you know, there is alot of Buddhist philosophy intertwined in Judo. The Buddha teaches that everything is in a constant state of change, and therefor nothing exists statically. This is very true in Judo. Kano initially developed it, yes, but many others after him have aided in the evolution of the Art. Therefore, I don't put alot of bearing on what Kano has written, since he is just one of many who constructed what I practiced today. Like I said before, dead people can't change their opinions. We have no idea now whether or not Kano would approve of what Judo has become if he were alive today.