Judo: Sport or martial art?

[Feisty Mouse]

I guess it would be a silly question, Patrick, to ask you if you cross-train or are engaged in any sports.

 

[bignick]

what about the fireman's carry in wrestling...aka kata guruma in judo..which i understand kano picked up from watching western wrestling

 

[Andrew Green]

umm.. a lot of the throws in Judo are done in wrestling as well...

 

[Patrick Skerry]

I guess it would be a silly question, Patrick, to ask you if you cross-train or are engaged in any sports.

I jog, and have done free-style wrestling in high school. I don't care for sports very much so I stick to the martial arts.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

what about the fireman's carry in wrestling...aka kata guruma in judo..which i understand kano picked up from watching western wrestling

Kata-guruma and the fireman's carry only look alike, in application they are very different.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

umm.. a lot of the throws in Judo are done in wrestling as well...

Like what for instance? The so called 'Jap whizzer' (ippon seoinage?). I'm not aware of any judo type throws in free style wrestling.

 

[bignick]

Kata-guruma and the fireman's carry only look alike, in application they are very different.

and how is this?

 

[Patrick Skerry]

and how is this?

The kata-guruma, shoulder wheel, is performed standing up. Review your nage no kata.

The fireman's carry is performed on the knees and the opponent is rolled over, not dropped from standing height as in kata guruma.

They are not identical techniques. Dr. Kano spontaneously used kata guruma in one of his matches against a bigger opponent. He wasn't influenced by western wrestling for this technique.

 

[bignick]

there are kneeling versions of kata guruma as well

from Mifune's Canon of Judo:

concerning Kata Guruma- "In competitions, you will be half-thrown, or be forced onto your knees, while still holding the opponents sleeve..."

hmmm...sounds a lot like a wrestling fireman's carry...

 

[bignick]

from Vladimir Putin's Judo: History, Theory, Practice

"One variation of this techniqe is called the 'knee wheel,' in which tori, after grabbing and throwing uke off balance, reaches for the same thigh from inside with his free hand and drops to his knees. Then, using his arms to lower uke's head and lift his legs, tori throws uke on his back."

sounds a lot like a fireman's carry too...

 

[Patrick Skerry]

there are kneeling versions of kata guruma as well

from Mifune's Canon of Judo:

concerning Kata Guruma- "In competitions, you will be half-thrown, or be forced onto your knees, while still holding the opponents sleeve..."

hmmm...sounds a lot like a wrestling fireman's carry...

Dr. Kano openly criticized Mifune's judo.

 

[bignick]

Dr. Kano openly criticized Mifune's judo.

oh yes...i forgot...kano promoted him to 10th dan because he was a bad judoka...come on man...give it up

 

[Patrick Skerry]

oh yes...i forgot...kano promoted him to 10th dan because he was a bad judoka...come on man...give it up

Stop generalizing for an answer, Dr. Kano was a critic of Mifune's judo.

 

[bignick]

Dr. Kano was a critic of Mifune's judo.

and this of course is specifically cited evidence...which you always ask for...and which i just provided in the last two posts...

 

[Andrew Green]

and this of course is specifically cited evidence...which you always ask for...and which i just provided in the last two posts...

You could ressurect Kano from the grave to speak against him and he wouldn't give in...

 

[Patrick Skerry]

from Vladimir Putin's Judo: History, Theory, Practice

"One variation of this techniqe is called the 'knee wheel,' in which tori, after grabbing and throwing uke off balance, reaches for the same thigh from inside with his free hand and drops to his knees. Then, using his arms to lower uke's head and lift his legs, tori throws uke on his back."

sounds a lot like a fireman's carry too...

Use a primary source on kata-guruma, Dr. Kano himself, not other interpretations of his technique.

 

[bignick]

You could ressurect Kano from the grave to speak against him and he wouldn't give in...

hey...what can i say...i'm bored...running my head into a brick wall seems as entertaining as anything else

 

[bignick]

Use a primary source on kata-guruma, Dr. Kano himself, not other interpretations of his technique.

at least i have respected sources...let's see your source for Kano's criticism of Mifune's judo...

 

[Andrew Green]

Use a primary source on kata-guruma, Dr. Kano himself, not other interpretations of his technique.

So Judo died with Kano and no one else is allowed to change or modify anything?

Sorry, but no...

And on wrestling throws, perhaps you should study some wrestling.

Nick -> Yeah, playing with trolls can be good entertainment once and a while

 

[Patrick Skerry]

You could ressurect Kano from the grave to speak against him and he wouldn't give in...

Unnecessary to wake the dead since Dr. Kano left behind copious documents and papers for the hopologist to research.