Judo: Sport or martial art?

[bignick]

well...if we use the word bujutsu...which is often used as martial arts...first off..

jutsu - as far as i know is art, technique...this is of cours differentiated by -do which is way

bu - we'll just keep as martial

as for martial...judo was not developed with the purpose of warfare or the military in mind...

as for art - kano deliberately called it judo...not jujutsu...because judo was more than just a strict art or techniques of combat...it was a way of life...therefore juDO instead of juJUTSU

that being the strictest definition of bujutsu or martial arts...it's pretty easy to see judo is not a martial art...

 

[John Bishop]

there is no sport view in jujitsu, period...that's one of the reason's Kano created judo...so people could practice their techniques against other people without having to worry about being killed during the competition...which kind of weakens your position on judo not being sportdom...judo is not a sport as i practice it...but let's face it...a shiai is a sporting aspect of modern judo...whether you want to admit it or not...i highly doubt many people enter a shiai with thought of dying on their minds...

we seem to be on the same side of the tracks here...neither believes that judo is sport and trying to turn it into a sport is doing harm to judo...

we seem to have different definitions on what constitutes a sport...there has always been a sporting aspect to judo, in my opinion...

there's a difference between being a sport and having sporting aspects...you be able to compete in judo safely you have to have rules and there has to be a sporting philosophy behind it...otherwise people get hurt...if you have someone in a choke or a submission and they pass out or tap you let go...that's a sporting philosophy...if someone gets a good throw and ippon is called the match is over...the loser doesn't try to get up and continue the fight...he lost the competition

Pretty good example. Let's face it, it comes down to application and philosophy. The Olympics did to Tae Kwon Do the same it did to Judo. In other words it caused many organizations/instructors/practitioners to switch their emphasis from self defense to the "sporting aspect". I mean who wouldn't want to be a Olympian? Look at Olympic tae kwon do matches. Competitors fighting with their hands down by their sides because the judges ussually won't score hand strikes. But who fights for real without their hands?
I think it comes down to your individual needs. If you want to be a Olympian you train with a school that has good "coaches" and specializes in competitive judo. If you want to learn self defense, you go with a school that specializes in self defense training. If you can't find a judo school that specializes in self defense, you cross train in jujitsu. Hopefully you can find a school that has a balance between the self defense and sporting aspects. Because lets face it, no matter how serious you are about your self defense training, trying it out against someone else is fun
Again, it's application. You can take boxing and make it a self defense system if you throw out sporting rules and train your boxers to defend against the illegal boxing tactics, like kicking, grabbing, two against one, armed attacks, etc.

More referance on judo/jujitsu: http://kajukenboinfo.com/judoju.html

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Hi Rich:

Good try at a definition, but there are a few holes in it.

First lets distinguish an 'art' from a 'science'. Science uses the scientific method: Observation, hypothesis, experimentation, and conclusion which produces consistant and predictable results. The beauty and strength of science is that it has reproducible results. Science produces results that are consistant, predictable, and can be reproduced at will anywhere on the planet. Chemistry and physics are sciences, but not sociology, because sociology does not produce consistant and predictable results, sociology is an art.

(Political Science is not a science, it is misnamed, a misnomer. The PoliSci people claim to be soon to be able to predict elections with scientific certainty, but haven't yet, and they presumptuously called their field political science. Political Scientists are criticized for this in Universities).

Warfare is an art, not a science. Nobody can predict the outcome of a war. There is no formula for victory in warfare. The art of warfare takes a longer time to learn than the science of physics, because the outcome of a war cannot be predicted with absolute certainty (as in a science) but must be learned through experience, constant study, and achieving victory through a series of correct educated guesses, not by a pat formula. Martial means warlike or warfare.

The martial arts are not scientific. The martial arts cannot predict the victory of any combative encounter or fistfight. So the martial artist studies 'all' forms of combat. The martial arts are all forms of combat, whether boxing, jiu-jitsu, or dirty fighting in the school yard. Again, none of which can be predicted since little David unexpectedly slew big Goliath.

Now that a simple, but important, understanding of the martial arts have been established, Judo most definately falls in the realm of a martial art, an unpredictable combative or warlike practice.

The purpose of studying martial arts is to increase the likelihood of victory. Because it is not a science with a predictable outcome, the serious study of the martial arts, whether at the Kodokan or at West Point, will increase the probability of victory in your favor - but does not guarantee a victory.

There are several translations of 'jutsu' and 'do' from Japanese to English (like O.K. is translated several different ways). Jutsu can mean 'study of' and do can mean 'way of'. Jutsu means studying to hurt, kill, or maim; Do means studying to practice hurting, killing, or maiming without really doing it. Kenjutsu uses real swords, Kendo uses bamboo swords; ju-jitsu really breaks arms and legs, ju-do does not really break arms or legs.

The samurai class were being outlawed, along with their killer martial arts, in Dr. Kano's time of the Meiji Restoration (1868-1912). The Emporer's edicts forbade the samurai arts of ju-jitsu. So many ju-jitsu practitioners, including Jigoro Kano, obeyed the law by modifying ju-jitsu into something softer, for Jigoro Kano he developed ju-jitsu into the more humane ju-do. The martial arts were saved from extinction in Japan by their modification into 'do'! (Kendo; Aikido, Kyudo, etc.).

Ju-do is a martial art. Like a professional boxer wearing 32 ounce mitts can still knock you out, one can still defend themselves with the art of judo! But judo was rendered humane in comparison to ju-jutsu. And like jujutsu, judo was never practiced as a sport, not even in Japan. A method for these martial arts to prove their techniques under near combat conditions was necessary, and that method was called a shiai.

A shiai is simply a method of testing your judo technique as close to actual combat conditions that the law allows. And that is it. Judo is not a sport and has never been one.

The western world, through the Olympics, is trying to twist and mangle judo from its Japanese and Taoist viewpoint into an empircal and predictable sport stripped of all its educational and metaphysical basis. The Olympics are hurting judo severely.

well...if we use the word bujutsu...which is often used as martial arts...first off..

jutsu - as far as i know is art, technique...this is of cours differentiated by -do which is way

bu - we'll just keep as martial

as for martial...judo was not developed with the purpose of warfare or the military in mind...

as for art - kano deliberately called it judo...not jujutsu...because judo was more than just a strict art or techniques of combat...it was a way of life...therefore juDO instead of juJUTSU

that being the strictest definition of bujutsu or martial arts...it's pretty easy to see judo is not a martial art...

 

[bignick]

i'll concede the use of the word art...but you completely ignored the martial in martial arts...judo was never developed or intended for military use...other arts...like jujutsu and tae kwon do were developed for the military

mar·tial ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (mär

sh

l)
adj.

1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.

you may make an argument about #3 but there is judo doesn't fit with either of other two...1 out of 3 doesn't cut it...

the fact that judo is taught to some militaries around the world today doesn't help your argument either because, according to you, we are discussing the original intent of judo and it was most definitely not related to the military of japan in any way...which is the only way it could be martial under the strictest sense of the word

There are several translations of 'jutsu' and 'do' from Japanese to English (like O.K. is translated several different ways). Jutsu can mean 'study of' and do can mean 'way of'. Jutsu means studying to hurt, kill, or maim; Do means studying to practice hurting, killing, or maiming without really doing it. Kenjutsu uses real swords, Kendo uses bamboo swords; ju-jitsu really breaks arms and legs, ju-do does not really break arms or legs.

studying to hurt kill and maim???

Ju means gentle, flexible, yielding....jujutsu...the art of gentleness, yielding and so forth doesn't even comes close to translating as you describe it...i practice jujitsu and i've never broken any one's arm in my life...and there's nothing to say that a judo lock can't break an arm...honestly...this explanation makes no sense to me whatsoever....

A shiai is simply a method of testing your judo technique as close to actual combat conditions that the law allows. And that is it. Judo is not a sport and has never been one.

as close to actual combat conditions...what about the lack of strikes, wrist locks, leg locks and so on...how come these aren't practiced in shiai then...because they're certainly in traditional judo....

they are banned from competition....dare i say it to make them safer and more sporting...the same reason a boxer wears his gloves...

 

[Patrick Skerry]

i'll concede the use of the word art...but you completely ignored the martial in martial arts...judo was never developed or intended for military use...other arts...like jujutsu and tae kwon do were developed for the military

mar·tial ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (mär

sh

l)
adj.

1. Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
2. Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
3. Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.

you may make an argument about #3 but there is judo doesn't fit with either of other two...1 out of 3 doesn't cut it...

the fact that judo is taught to some militaries around the world today doesn't help your argument either because, according to you, we are discussing the original intent of judo and it was most definitely not related to the military of japan in any way...which is the only way it could be martial under the strictest sense of the word

studying to hurt kill and maim???

Ju means gentle, flexible, yielding....jujutsu...the art of gentleness, yielding and so forth doesn't even comes close to translating as you describe it...i practice jujitsu and i've never broken any one's arm in my life...and there's nothing to say that a judo lock can't break an arm...honestly...this explanation makes no sense to me whatsoever....



as close to actual combat conditions...what about the lack of strikes, wrist locks, leg locks and so on...how come these aren't practiced in shiai then...because they're certainly in traditional judo....

they are banned from competition....dare i say it to make them safer and more sporting...the same reason a boxer wears his gloves...

Yes, judo is as martial as boxing or wrestling. One of the distinguishing features of the Eastern martial arts, as opposed to the Western martial arts, is the difference between a 'do' and a 'jutsu'.

And as I clearly wrote, there are several translations of 'jutsu' into English, and to practive Ken-jutsu is to cut with a real sword and to practive Ken-do is to strike with a bamboo sword. The art of gentleness is, again, just one translation of jutsu!

There is no randori (free practice) in ken-jitsu for obvious reasons, you don't want to hurt, kill, or maim your practice partner, all ken-jitsu training had been confined to kata. But in Ken-do, randori is possible, and you can practice a limited amount of ken-jutsu techniques in Ken-do. The same thing can be said of Ju-jitsu, there is really no randori in ju-jitsu, the techniques are too dangerous, but Dr. Kano was able to incorporate randori in his modification of ju-jitsu into ju-do, that was one of Kano Sensei's great innovations.

Judo is definately a martial art, and not a sport, in the strictest definition of the word. The martial arts are not confined to the military. Anybody who has never been in the military and has defended himself in a street fight using karate or ju-jutsu or boxing or judo, has used a martial art. Martial means warlike or combative, and the study of the martial arts is not confined to either military academies or dojos, and can be learned on the street in fights.

You said you were practicing ju-jutsu but have never broken anyone's arm, yet that is exactly what you are training to do in jujutsu, and less so in judo. You are learning to break an arm or a leg or to maim someone in your own self-defense, it just appears you haven't put theory into practice yet.

The reason a boxer wears gloves is because bare-knuckle boxing was outlawed a hundred years ago, and dueling was outlawed a hundred and fifty years ago. Which is similar to what happened in Japan from 1868 - 1912, sword dueling and unarmed jujitsu fights were outlawed by emporer Meiji, and just as the bare-knuckle boxer of the 1800s in this country had to don mitts, in Japan ju-jutsu had to become ju-do. And a judo shiai is as close to actual combat as the law allows, just as a professional boxing match is as close to an actual fist fight as the law allows. (Don't forget, Governor McCain outlawed those mixed martial arts matches out in Arizona or Nevada for getting too realistic, i.e. serious injury occurances).

Again, if you sift through the papers published by Dr. Jigoro Kano regarding his judo, he never developed it as a sport, not ever! A means of physical education yes, a sport - definately not. Judo fits all the requirements of a martial art, and merely resembles a sport.

 

[bignick]

And as I clearly wrote, there are several translations of 'jutsu' into English, and to practive Ken-jutsu is to cut with a real sword and to practive Ken-do is to strike with a bamboo sword. The art of gentleness is, again, just one translation of jutsu!

jutsu has nothing to do with gentleness...that's the JU in JUjutsu...and JUdo...

 

[bignick]

:-offtopic

You said you were practicing ju-jutsu but have never broken anyone's arm, yet that is exactly what you are training to do in jujutsu

We are getting really far from the track you started on...but thanks to my jujitsu i feel much more able to defend myself without having to hurt someone...using taekwondo the only way i can defend myself very well...that is the art which i am most proficient in...but to do so i have to use strikes and kicks that will seriously hurt someone...because you can't tap someone with your foot and expect them to stop...you have to hit them with force...

using judo...i'd be most likely to throw someone...throwing someone without proper falling skills is very dangerous since some judo throws have the same impact as falling from a two story building...

using jujitsu i can apply a number of wristlocks, armbars, pressure points...etc to try to gain pain compliance from the attacker...without actually hurting them...it's still an option but it doesn't have to go that far

studying jujitsu has made much less dangerous to opponents in a self defense situation...jujitsu isn't studying to break peoples arms and kill them

 

[Patrick Skerry]

:-offtopic


We are getting really far from the track you started on...but thanks to my jujitsu i feel much more able to defend myself without having to hurt someone...using taekwondo the only way i can defend myself very well...that is the art which i am most proficient in...but to do so i have to use strikes and kicks that will seriously hurt someone...because you can't tap someone with your foot and expect them to stop...you have to hit them with force...

using judo...i'd be most likely to throw someone...throwing someone without proper falling skills is very dangerous since some judo throws have the same impact as falling from a two story building...

using jujitsu i can apply a number of wristlocks, armbars, pressure points...etc to try to gain pain compliance from the attacker...without actually hurting them...it's still an option but it doesn't have to go that far

studying jujitsu has made much less dangerous to opponents in a self defense situation...jujitsu isn't studying to break peoples arms and kill them

Ooops, you have gotten off track from the topic by over-analyzing one sentence fragment in my judo is a martial art not sport argument.

So could you put this thread back on topic?

 

[bignick]

this has long since stopped being a fruitful area of discussion same goes for the explanation in the blue gi thread...it was nice to talk some judo...but unless something worthwhile comes up...i don't think this is worth discussing anymore

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Science uses the scientific method: Observation, hypothesis, experimentation, and conclusion which produces consistant and predictable results. The beauty and strength of science is that it has reproducible results. Science produces results that are consistant, predictable, and can be reproduced at will anywhere on the planet. Chemistry and physics are sciences, but not sociology, because sociology does not produce consistant and predictable results, sociology is an art.

WRONG.

 

[jukado1]

J. Kano took what he felt were the best, most effective techniques and principles from the jiu jitsu's of his day and combined and modified them to create what he felt was a superior system that he called judo, He felt that the jiu jitsu's were just fighting tricks with no system to them, but when he developed judo there were two separate arts, one for combat/fighting and one for self improvement/sport, while most judo schools now teach the sport/art of judo do not underestimate the fighting style of judo, judo includes atami waza/karate, jiu jitsu/aikido/grappeling.

 

[Kane]

I honestly think judo is a much more effective Martial Art than weak karate. No offense or anything, but I see much more effective techniques for a street fight in judo than in karate.

I've done both judo and ju jistu. The thing is, even though judo has a lot of dangerous techniques taken out it you still practice at full force which is equally as effective as ju jitsu.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

I honestly think judo is a much more effective Martial Art than weak karate. No offense or anything, but I see much more effective techniques for a street fight in judo than in karate.

I've done both judo and ju jistu. The thing is, even though judo has a lot of dangerous techniques taken out it you still practice at full force which is equally as effective as ju jitsu.

Hello Kane,

I agree that judo is an effective martial art and can work in a street fight. I also agree that judo is better than weak karate, but not strong karate. Do not underestimate karate in any form or style, it is a good to superior self defense system.

My grudge is the term 'sport' karate - which is what? A reinvention of point fighting in the days of karate champions like Thomas LaPuppet or Tony Tullners?

And don't forget that judo is just watered down ju-jutsu. Any Japanese fighting style that ends in 'jutsu' should be the ultimate in street fighting, or else its not a jutsu, but a 'do'. Judo has retained some ju-jutsu techniques in its kata, such as the kime no kata, to make it a practical street defense.

Yet judo, as is, can be used in a variety of street fighting self-defense situations; another reason why judo is a martial art and not a sport.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Another reason why judo is not a sport can be found in the article: 'On The Importance of Ukemi' by Jigoro Kano (http://www.judoinfo.com/ukemi.htm)
where the founding genius explained how spiritual development and human perfection are the goals of judo, not winning medals!

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Finally, for me, in combination that Dr. Kano never referred to judo as a sport, this is positive proof that Judo is definately not a sport, was that Japan had sports independent of martial arts:


'Temari' was an ancient Japanese ballgame
http://ww82.tiki.ne.jp/~chu-chu/English/E-rekisi/E-rekisi.htm

'Dakyu' was samurai polo
http://www.kunaicho.go.jp/e10/ed10-01.html

and this is an Edo Period ball game
http://www.temarikai.com/history01.htm

So at a time of martial arts, Japan also played sports. The martial arts and sports were obviously differentiated in ancient Japan. So this sums it up in my opinion, JUDO IS NOT A SPORT.

Counter arguments welcomed! Lets clear this up here on martialtalk.com

 

[Andrew Green]

You know, not so long ago, Western sport developed and organized amateur sports emerged.

Some of the main reasons it spread was because it helped develop character in its participants, taught important life skills, raised self-confidence, and was all about developing the person through sport...

Kano wanted Judo in the Olympics. For it to be in the olympics it would have had to have been a sport.

Judo is a sport, blue gi's help out, especially in televised matches.

If you are so against the sport element of Judo, do Jujitsu, or just don't compete. But all of this is getting silly.

It's very simple, if you don't like the way an organization does things, don't be a part of it. Others think they got those things right, and those are the people that make up those organizations.

What you are doing is trolling, and it won't win you any supporters.

 

[Hollywood1340]

Oh man, Mr. Skerry sure has a soap box, don't he? I think he should run for office on the "No Blue Gi" ticket, if it wasn't for the fact most everything he types is simply for his satisfaction of typing it, I know I'd vote for him. Well, I mean other then he has refused to verify his judo education outside of the web. I know. I've asked.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Mr. Green:

Some of the main reasons it spread was because it helped develop character in its participants, taught important life skills, raised self-confidence, and was all about developing the person through sport...

Please read Dr. Kano's insightful paper: 'The Contribution of Judo to Education' where he argued the superiority of judo in developing character and the weakness of western sports in this area.

Kano wanted Judo in the Olympics. For it to be in the olympics it would have had to have been a sport.

Mr. Green, this observation is a non-sequitur, your conclusion doesn't follow from the premises and therefore you are simply question begging, i.e. stating that judo is sport simply because it is in the Olympics.

Could you provide some evidence on 'why' you believe judo is a sport?
I have provided two sources to support my view that judo is not a sport: 1) Dr. Kano never called it such in any of his papers, and 2.) ancient Japan played sports independent of their martial arts practice. It is these two assertions which leads me to believe that judo is not a sport and shouldn't be practiced as one.

If you are so against the sport element of Judo, do Jujitsu, or just don't compete. But all of this is getting silly.

'Bailing out' is never a solution. Reform or non-comliance is a necessary evil in society, especially when you know something to be wrong, such as the sportification of judo. And intelligent discourse is never silly, logical and coherent arguments are what these forums are all about.

It's very simple, if you don't like the way an organization does things, don't be a part of it.

I'm afraid that is the ultimate solution, not being part of the problem and forming one's own judo club and judo organization.

 

[Mekugi]

My arguement is :

"Judo is a martial art that has sporting tendencies".

What is your argument whether judo is a sport or a martial art?

 

[Andrew Green]

Please read Dr. Kano's insightful paper: 'The Contribution of Judo to Education' where he argued the superiority of judo in developing character and the weakness of western sports in this area.

Wow, what a shocker.... he thought his stuff was better then everyone elses... Name one company that advertises "Yeah, they're better then us, but come to us anyways"

Mr. Green, this observation is a non-sequitur, your conclusion doesn't follow from the premises and therefore you are simply question begging, i.e. stating that judo is sport simply because it is in the Olympics.

The Olympics is a Sporting event. It is for top level athletes in different sports to compete. Judo is a sport. In the Olympics top level Judo athletes compete against each other. Kano wanted Judo in the Olympics... A sporting event...