Judging Forms at Tournaments

[DaveB]

Yup. OP asked what judges are looking for, and it instantly turned into "there shouldn't be kata competition" and "competitive karate gives us all a bad name."

How about if one doesn't have any insight into the actual question being asked, one should simply not say anything? Radical concept, for sure.

Well this post I'm quoting would have been a great opportunity to practice what you preach.

You see, I acknowledged my opinion wasn't helpful when I gave it and had no intention to post further unless I was asked. Which I was. By the Thread poster.

Who asked you?

 

[DaveB]

Kata competition doesn't cause any of the woes you ascribe to it, so long as good, "live" training methods are also used. People can go and gawk at an engine, and that doesn't make the engine less effective. Even if that gawking occasionally leads the owner to add bits of chrome that aren't really necessary to the effective function of the engine, that won't be a problem, so long as the original purpose of the engine is still fulfilled by proper maintenance, etc.

I see a connection. I believe it's in the mindset created by the existence of kata comps and their acknowledgement as valid.

I can see why others may disagree though.

Oh, and the martial arts as character building - that's actually far more useful in most people's lives than the fighting use. In fact, it often makes the fighting less likely to happen.

Absolutely.

But who are you to build my character?
Was the Cobra Kai sensei teaching good lessons?
If I'm a full formed adult, should a dude in funny pyjamas have any sway over my character?
Will persevering in the dojo actually translate into the rest of my life?

In my short life I've encountered two very senior karate teachers who have been put in prison for sexual child abuse, one of whom was to me an obvious psychopath who yet managed to surround himself with an online community of other senior martial artists who bent over backwards to excuse his bullying of anyone who disagreed with him. So please excuse my cynicism.

Understand that I don't take issue with the theory. And when it works I think it works well. I just think it's better ascribed to skilled coaching than martial arts per se.

 

[Headhunter]

If that's directed at me I'm very disappointed.

I love kata and love to watch it done well. I think it's one of the best training tools people have come up with.

I dislike kata competition. That makes me a troll?

Well if I'm a troll, your fake news.

I always love that attitude. I don't agree with you so you're a troll. No it's called having a different opinion. I'm the same I like kata even now I don't train karate anymore I still practice because it's nice and relaxing going through them and it's a good workout and I always found them fun to learn but I don't like the competition aspect because it makes competitors break their own rules in order to win and I think that's silly. Does that make me a troll? No because I've given a genuine reason if I went on here saying. "Kata sucks screw anyone who thinks different and if you like it your an idiot " that'd be trolling but if you can give reasoning by your statement then that's an opinion not trolling

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see a connection. I believe it's in the mindset created by the existence of kata comps and their acknowledgement as valid.

I can see why others may disagree though.



Absolutely.

But who are you to build my character?
Was the Cobra Kai sensei teaching good lessons?
If I'm a full formed adult, should a dude in funny pyjamas have any sway over my character?
Will persevering in the dojo actually translate into the rest of my life?

In my short life I've encountered two very senior karate teachers who have been put in prison for sexual child abuse, one of whom was to me an obvious psychopath who yet managed to surround himself with an online community of other senior martial artists who bent over backwards to excuse his bullying of anyone who disagreed with him. So please excuse my cynicism.

Understand that I don't take issue with the theory. And when it works I think it works well. I just think it's better ascribed to skilled coaching than martial arts per se.

You are treating the MA as a character builder as an oddity. The same is said (appropriately) of team sports, academic competitions, and a lot of other things. Let's be clear: the experience will shape the participants. We can choose to allow it to be a random influence, or we can choose to do what we can to help people become more of what they are capable of being (character development). I will choose the latter as an instructor, trainer, consultant, and in every other role where I influence others.

 

[Tez3]

When we say character building though what sort of character do we mean? some sports certainly develop character...look at football ( soccer to the uninitiated) they fall to try to force a penalty ( cheating) they argue with referees even assault them, they are inordinately self important, they are also very 'entitled', many are promiscuous because it's offered on a plate because of their 'fame' and they can be the most whiny people going.

 

[DaveB]

You are treating the MA as a character builder as an oddity. The same is said (appropriately) of team sports, academic competitions, and a lot of other things. Let's be clear: the experience will shape the participants. We can choose to allow it to be a random influence, or we can choose to do what we can to help people become more of what they are capable of being (character development). I will choose the latter as an instructor, trainer, consultant, and in every other role where I influence others.

That's not really what i was writing about.

The conciet that it is dedicated martial arts training that improves character was my subject. Hence... all the stuff I wrote.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When we say character building though what sort of character do we mean? some sports certainly develop character...look at football ( soccer to the uninitiated) they fall to try to force a penalty ( cheating) they argue with referees even assault them, they are inordinately self important, they are also very 'entitled', many are promiscuous because it's offered on a plate because of their 'fame' and they can be the most whiny people going.

And that's my point. Coaches in those sports have a choice when working with kids. They can allow that to happen - allow them to emulate the pros. Or they can have internal rules on the team to reward better sportsmanship.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's not really what i was writing about.

The conciet that it is dedicated martial arts training that improves character was my subject. Hence... all the stuff I wrote.

I haven't heard anyone express that conceit. I know many who believe MA can be a better vehicle in some ways, but even those folks apparently recognize it's not unique to MA. Dedicated MA training, like any dedicated practice that invests time in long-term skill development, does help build character. But only if it's led well. It could be led poorly (and we don't have to reach for fictitious examples) and build poor character.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If that's directed at me I'm very disappointed.

I love kata and love to watch it done well. I think it's one of the best training tools people have come up with.

I dislike kata competition. That makes me a troll?

Well if I'm a troll, your fake news.

No, not directed at you. At least not entirely. You're not a troll.

But it's "you're" not "your." LOL.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Someone's triggered. Point fighting does suck.. Ooh look I punched 5 feet away from him give me a point wooo I'm a world champion.

You're entitled to your opinion. However, consider that wasn't the question that was being asked. Not just you, but several people seem to think the right way to answer the question is to put down the entire concept.

Q: I have a question about judging a kata competition.
A: Tournament kata sucks.

See? Kinda buttholey, IMHO. Don't like kata? Don't like point fighting? Don't like this or don't like that? Good to know. Start a thread about it.

 

[jks9199]

Been tied up, unable to comment here. Threads gone in several directions... but...

First... Forms, and their purposes. Let's start by noting that the question was asked in the General Martial Arts forum, and seemed broadly aimed at forms. I say that because there are different sorts of forms in different styles. There are forms that are meant to teach particular principles or concepts. There are forms that encapsulate a system's techniques and principles. There are forms done purely for esthetics; they're beautiful or athletic, and that's what they're supposed to be. There are forms that are meant as moving meditations, or spiritual aids. There are forms that are meant to build strength and physical ability (yeah, a yoga sequence is a sort of form...). There are partnered forms that record exactly how a technique is supposed to be done and work against someone -- and solo forms done without anyone else. So... if you don't like competitive forms, or your system doesn't include them -- cool. Don't bash people who do or systems that do. Train your way, and let others train theirs. I'm not a fan of the XMA stuff -- but I can't knock the athleticism and physicality of the competitors!

Which leads to judging... There are two broad types of tournaments: closed/style specific, and open/non-restricted. If I'm judging a closed tournament in my system, I know what those forms are supposed to look like. I know what the stances are supposed to be, where you can add theatricality or showmanship and where it's hiding poor technique. And I can tell whether a pause is dramatic or confusion... So they get graded one way. I look for proper execution of our principles, proper stances, the proper form, etc. I know that even though one form may be shorter than another, it's also more intricate or complex while another form is incredibly physically demanding. But in an open tournament, I don't know the forms. Across the Japanese Karate (and many of the Okinawan Karate, too), there are a number of fairly common kata, even if they aren't exactly the same from style to style. But in the various Chinese arts, there can be different forms in the same named art... And then you get us oddball styles like Bando... So how do I judge fairly in open tournaments? I look for balanced footwork, solid stances, clean techniques that show focused targets, and I look for whether or not the performer seems to know the form. It's usually pretty obvious if they get lost; pauses in weird places or for too long, techniques that just don't connect, etc. Length and apparent complexity figure in, too -- longer or harder forms are likely to score better in one division than shorter/simpler ones. Where it gets really hard is when you're trying to score forms that use very different principles against each other -- especially if you don't understand the principles. Watch a hard style judge try to assess a soft style form -- or vice versa!! -- sometime... They sometimes just don't connect it...

So... advice to a new judge, in an open tournament? Do your best to be fair and to be consistent in how you judge. If you're way off base from the other judges, speak to them about what they're seeing that you're not, good or bad. Personally, especially for new judges, I like to have 5 judges, and discard high & low scores. But at least if you're internally consistent with yourself -- your scores will be fair for all the competitors.

Advice for a competitor? Know your form. Know where you can add dramatic touches, and use those moments to help distinguish yourself. Understand the rules for a competition; are the judges told to look for strict adherence to the exact form, or is their room for variants? Have a second go-to form in your back pocket, in case something happens that you get told to do a different one (like a run off between two competitors). Never let the judges know you made a mistake; they'll either already know, or if they don't -- you can fool them. (I know someone who won a grand championship despite inventing about 1/2 the form because he got lost... but the judges didn't know!) Afterwards, if you get a chance, thank the judges and ask them politely what you can do to compete better next time.

 

[JR 137]

Well this post I'm quoting would have been a great opportunity to practice what you preach.

You see, I acknowledged my opinion wasn't helpful when I gave it and had no intention to post further unless I was asked. Which I was. By the Thread poster.

Who asked you?

I didn't need to be asked. Just like you.

 

[JR 137]

Been tied up, unable to comment here. Threads gone in several directions... but...

First... Forms, and their purposes. Let's start by noting that the question was asked in the General Martial Arts forum, and seemed broadly aimed at forms. I say that because there are different sorts of forms in different styles. There are forms that are meant to teach particular principles or concepts. There are forms that encapsulate a system's techniques and principles. There are forms done purely for esthetics; they're beautiful or athletic, and that's what they're supposed to be. There are forms that are meant as moving meditations, or spiritual aids. There are forms that are meant to build strength and physical ability (yeah, a yoga sequence is a sort of form...). There are partnered forms that record exactly how a technique is supposed to be done and work against someone -- and solo forms done without anyone else. So... if you don't like competitive forms, or your system doesn't include them -- cool. Don't bash people who do or systems that do. Train your way, and let others train theirs. I'm not a fan of the XMA stuff -- but I can't knock the athleticism and physicality of the competitors!

Which leads to judging... There are two broad types of tournaments: closed/style specific, and open/non-restricted. If I'm judging a closed tournament in my system, I know what those forms are supposed to look like. I know what the stances are supposed to be, where you can add theatricality or showmanship and where it's hiding poor technique. And I can tell whether a pause is dramatic or confusion... So they get graded one way. I look for proper execution of our principles, proper stances, the proper form, etc. I know that even though one form may be shorter than another, it's also more intricate or complex while another form is incredibly physically demanding. But in an open tournament, I don't know the forms. Across the Japanese Karate (and many of the Okinawan Karate, too), there are a number of fairly common kata, even if they aren't exactly the same from style to style. But in the various Chinese arts, there can be different forms in the same named art... And then you get us oddball styles like Bando... So how do I judge fairly in open tournaments? I look for balanced footwork, solid stances, clean techniques that show focused targets, and I look for whether or not the performer seems to know the form. It's usually pretty obvious if they get lost; pauses in weird places or for too long, techniques that just don't connect, etc. Length and apparent complexity figure in, too -- longer or harder forms are likely to score better in one division than shorter/simpler ones. Where it gets really hard is when you're trying to score forms that use very different principles against each other -- especially if you don't understand the principles. Watch a hard style judge try to assess a soft style form -- or vice versa!! -- sometime... They sometimes just don't connect it...

So... advice to a new judge, in an open tournament? Do your best to be fair and to be consistent in how you judge. If you're way off base from the other judges, speak to them about what they're seeing that you're not, good or bad. Personally, especially for new judges, I like to have 5 judges, and discard high & low scores. But at least if you're internally consistent with yourself -- your scores will be fair for all the competitors.

Advice for a competitor? Know your form. Know where you can add dramatic touches, and use those moments to help distinguish yourself. Understand the rules for a competition; are the judges told to look for strict adherence to the exact form, or is their room for variants? Have a second go-to form in your back pocket, in case something happens that you get told to do a different one (like a run off between two competitors). Never let the judges know you made a mistake; they'll either already know, or if they don't -- you can fool them. (I know someone who won a grand championship despite inventing about 1/2 the form because he got lost... but the judges didn't know!) Afterwards, if you get a chance, thank the judges and ask them politely what you can do to compete better next time.

Regarding the guy who made up half of the kata and still won...

I was told it was a rule in some open tournaments that "mistakes" must be ignored by the judges. The judges must assume that you're doing the kata correctly by your organization's standards.

For example...
About 20 years ago, people from my dojo were preparing for a tournament. We did a mock tournament where judged each other just like it was going to be done at the tournament. A friend of my sensei's came in to help us out. He previously served as a judge and judging coordinator in the tournament.

One student did Pinan 1, but did punches going up the middle instead of high blocks. The my sensei's friend said "We all know he did it wrong. But he kept going as if it was how he was taught it. Different organizations do things differently, and in an open tournament, you have to assume he's doing it correctly according to his organization. You have to score his performance, not what you think are the right or wrong way movements in the kata."

The tournament you're referring to most likely had the same policy. After all, when I competed in weapons, I saw the bo kata Shushi No Kon performed 3 completely different ways. They weren't variations, they looked like entirely different kata. Which one was the right way? I've since seen videos of all three versions of that kata (the tournament was quite a long time before YouTube).

 

[jks9199]

Regarding the guy who made up half of the kata and still won...

I was told it was a rule in some open tournaments that "mistakes" must be ignored by the judges. The judges must assume that you're doing the kata correctly by your organization's standards.

.

Much simpler. The judges didn't know the form, so since he didn't stop and didn't advertise his error... they didn't have a clue.

But your senior judges comment further in is the heart of it. If you don't stop, judges will often assume a coherent error, to coin a term, is simply how you were taught.

 

[Tez3]

One student did Pinan 1, but did punches going up the middle instead of high blocks.

Which styles' 'Pinan1' ? Pinan Nidan is often used as the first kata but Pinan Shodan is actually the first. Just saying because it highlights the problem when you have so many different styles doing kata against each other in a competition.

 

[JR 137]

Which styles' 'Pinan1' ? Pinan Nidan is often used as the first kata but Pinan Shodan is actually the first. Just saying because it highlights the problem when you have so many different styles doing kata against each other in a competition.

Kyokushin.

I've never seen any school not do high blocks/jodan uke on the way up.

In an open tournament/a tournament that has more than one karate organization competing, the judges should assume the student is doing the moves they were taught by their organization. If the student obviously corrects a mistake or shows they've made a mistake, penalize them for it; if they're moving along as though they're doing the right thing, don't penalize them.

Case in point - a judge shouldn't penalize the shuto mawashi stow uke done at the end of that kata because they think the competitor did it wrong/never saw it done that way; that's exactly how Kyokushin and offshoots are taught it, even though pretty much everyone else does it another way.

 

[Tez3]

Pinan Nidan from Wado Ryu

 

[Buka]

But who are you to build my character?
Was the Cobra Kai sensei teaching good lessons?
If I'm a full formed adult, should a dude in funny pyjamas have any sway over my character?
Will persevering in the dojo actually translate into the rest of my life?

In my short life I've encountered two very senior karate teachers who have been put in prison for sexual child abuse, one of whom was to me an obvious psychopath who yet managed to surround himself with an online community of other senior martial artists who bent over backwards to excuse his bullying of anyone who disagreed with him. So please excuse my cynicism.

Understand that I don't take issue with the theory. And when it works I think it works well. I just think it's better ascribed to skilled coaching than martial arts per se.

But who are you to build my character?

Me, personally? I'm nobody. Me as your Martial Instructor, that would have been a different story completely.

Was the Cobra Kai sensei teaching good lessons?

The character in the movie? You know he wasn't. But the other character in the movie, the lead, that Miyagi guy, he kinda' was.

If I'm a full formed adult, should a dude in funny pyjamas have any sway over my character?

I don't know. I never took lessons from a guy in pjs.

Will persevering in the dojo actually translate into the rest of my life?

Depends on the dojo, how long you train and what you put into it. Would have in mine. But then you wouldn't have had any other choice.

In my short life I've encountered two very senior karate teachers who have been put in prison for sexual child abuse, one of whom was to me an obvious psychopath who yet managed to surround himself with an online community of other senior martial artists who bent over backwards to excuse his bullying of anyone who disagreed with him. So please excuse my cynicism.

In my long life I've met far more bad guys than you have, both in gis and in the streets. But I completely excuse your cynicism.

Understand that I don't take issue with the theory. And when it works I think it works well. I just think it's better ascribed to skilled coaching than martial arts per se.

Yes, it does work well. To me, skilled coaching and teaching good Martial Arts is one and the same. I've helped a lot of people develop their character over the years. And please note I said I've helped "them" develop "their" character. I did not develop it for them. I don't think that can be done.
As an aside - I really enjoy your posts. Hope you continue here for a long time. [even if you train with guys in pajamas]

 

[JR 137]

Which styles' 'Pinan1' ? Pinan Nidan is often used as the first kata but Pinan Shodan is actually the first. Just saying because it highlights the problem when you have so many different styles doing kata against each other in a competition.

Sorry; somehow the link didn't appear in my previous post.

Looks different than yours. And both look different than Shotokan. Which is right? If you have a judge from Kyokushin, Wado Ryu, and Shotokan, each way will get 2 low scores due to errors, and one high score. Unless of course you assume that the competitor did the kata as taught to him/her. Then the scoring should be consistent, regardless of the judges' backgrounds.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just wonder if a Karate Kata and a Kung Fu form can be judged any different. If you are a Karate judge, when you see this Kung Fu form competed in a Karate tournament, what grade will you give to him?