Judging Forms at Tournaments

[Bill Mattocks]

I gladly await the first fool who puts his big mouth to use at a local tournament by agreeing to judge kata, then refusing because it's all a fraud. I'd pay to see that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But that's exactly my point.

Forms are a training tool. They exist to help us develop into capable martial artists. They are not to be judged just as you don't win a boxing match by shadow boxing.

It's this wooly b.s. that enables so much of what dropbear and Martial D would call fantasy martial arts. Instead of adopting a simple direct understanding of hit or be hit fighting and self defence the arts are cluttered with baggage like this. Perfection of form as an end in it's self; martial arts as character building; mastery requiring 30 years of study... all of these things are fabricated romanticism unrelated to any but the most modern arts (that I'm aware of- I'm sure someone will correct me). All just ways of people saving embarrassment from getting beaten up. And rather than challenging those people to live up to the perfection of character rhetoric; to take their beating and use it as fuel for improvement, we allow the proliferation of myth and magic and interpretive dance

Kata competition is the sickness in the soul of karate that corrupts the very nature of the art. We must cut it out and burn the very memory of it!

Kata competition doesn't cause any of the woes you ascribe to it, so long as good, "live" training methods are also used. People can go and gawk at an engine, and that doesn't make the engine less effective. Even if that gawking occasionally leads the owner to add bits of chrome that aren't really necessary to the effective function of the engine, that won't be a problem, so long as the original purpose of the engine is still fulfilled by proper maintenance, etc.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But that's exactly my point.

Forms are a training tool. They exist to help us develop into capable martial artists. They are not to be judged just as you don't win a boxing match by shadow boxing.

It's this wooly b.s. that enables so much of what dropbear and Martial D would call fantasy martial arts. Instead of adopting a simple direct understanding of hit or be hit fighting and self defence the arts are cluttered with baggage like this. Perfection of form as an end in it's self; martial arts as character building; mastery requiring 30 years of study... all of these things are fabricated romanticism unrelated to any but the most modern arts (that I'm aware of- I'm sure someone will correct me). All just ways of people saving embarrassment from getting beaten up. And rather than challenging those people to live up to the perfection of character rhetoric; to take their beating and use it as fuel for improvement, we allow the proliferation of myth and magic and interpretive dance

Kata competition is the sickness in the soul of karate that corrupts the very nature of the art. We must cut it out and burn the very memory of it!

Oh, and the martial arts as character building - that's actually far more useful in most people's lives than the fighting use. In fact, it often makes the fighting less likely to happen.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't agree with that but I would like kata to be proper kata with no added tricks, bells or whistles. I would like the kata to be recognisable and not something done to look like film choreography, though perhaps a class for a scripted fight might make a good competition!

I don't mind the acrobatics, but to me they belong in an acrobatics competition or a dance competition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Kata is fine but the competitions make people turn their kata into ridiculous movements that break every rule of their martial art

Only if the judging rules favor that. The problem is the criteria, not the competition, itself.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And that just causes more confusion. People who enter competitions will see some places wanting really low stances and some wanting really high stances and that'll just mess up their training because they won't be training their form consistently. I believe karate competitions are a waste of time because the competitions strip away what the style is teaching. Karate was made for self defence so it includes groin shots, knees elbows, eye gouges, throat strikes but then all those are illegal moves in competitions so you spend years training the student to do those moves then tell them they can't use them if they want to win a trophy.

Point fighting and kata tournaments have given karate such a bad name. People think that all karate people do is tap fighting because that's all that's seen in competition, they think the forms are stupid gymnastics and over the top movements because that's what's seen in tournaments. If katate wants to be taken seriously again I believe it should seriously update it's Tournament rules and get rid of the rubbish it is today or stop them completely.

IMO, kata for competitions shouldn't be a different thing, though. You should bring your best kata, and just let it be judged. If there are small adjustments that could be made, okay, but why bother?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Same old thing. Kata sucks, punching air sucks, kumite sucks, point sparring sucks, only real unscripted all out brawling teaches anything. Yawn. Go away, troll.

 

[JR 137]

Same old thing. Kata sucks, punching air sucks, kumite sucks, point sparring sucks, only real unscripted all out brawling teaches anything. Yawn. Go away, troll.

Yup. OP asked what judges are looking for, and it instantly turned into "there shouldn't be kata competition" and "competitive karate gives us all a bad name."

How about if one doesn't have any insight into the actual question being asked, one should simply not say anything? Radical concept, for sure.

 

[CB Jones]

Sorry, I just don't think these people are ruining Karate.

(Kata and weapons forms video starts at 49 second mark.)

Its a good group of people that train hard and have dedicated a lot of their lives to karate and shouldn't be disrespected just because you don't like competition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Funny story: a Ryu-kyu Kempo instructor was asked to judge weapons forms at a competition. First person steps up to do nunchaku kata, does the whole thing with flashy speed 'chucks. Ryu-kyu guy takes a set of wooden nunchaku from his bag, hands them to the guy (grown-up), and says, "Do it again with these." He wasn't asked back to judge.

 

[Headhunter]

Headhunter,

You are entitled to your opinion.


For the most part, I don't understand why some people worry so much about what other people are doing.

If you aren't into competition that's fine but why the need to disparage people who do.

You don't like the formats of the competitions don't go to them or start your own organization and do it how you feel it should be.

Who's worrying this is a discussion page about martial arts. I do disagree and I'm gonna say I do. im not telling anyone what to do. i think its a waste of time so i'm going to say that because that's the whole point of the forum, what do you want me to talk about? My holidays?

I always love that line. You're entitled to your opinion but then tell me that basically I'm not. Sorry if it upsets you...nah I'm not that's my opinion so I'm going to say it. Don't like it there's an ignore button you can use

 

[Headhunter]

I gladly await the first fool who puts his big mouth to use at a local tournament by agreeing to judge kata, then refusing because it's all a fraud. I'd pay to see that.

I have judged at them before this guy entered a traditional forms category then started going back flips and cartwheels and breakdancing with the odd punch and kick thrown in, no stances no anything that really resembled martial arts. Everyone else gave him top score, I gave him a 0. Never got asked back, funny that

 

[Streetfighter2]

Same old thing. Kata sucks, punching air sucks, kumite sucks, point sparring sucks, only real unscripted all out brawling teaches anything. Yawn. Go away, troll.

Someone's triggered. Point fighting does suck.. Ooh look I punched 5 feet away from him give me a point wooo I'm a world champion.

 

[Streetfighter2]

Sorry, I just don't think these people are ruining Karate.

(Kata and weapons forms video starts at 49 second mark.)

Its a good group of people that train hard and have dedicated a lot of their lives to karate and shouldn't be disrespected just because you don't like competition.

You're just upset that your kid doeś it and people are saying he's wasting his time. You seem to talk a lot for a guy who's martial art experience is driving his kid to karate class. I love how you always say "we" enter tournaments...nah mate you don't enter them your kid does. Are you one of those parents who takes credit for every bit of success he has and say it was all down to you

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can't judge form or technique without an opponent?

Thats absurd.

A technique involves:

1. opportunity,
2. timing,
3. angle,
4. power,
5. balance.

Without opponent, opportunity, timing, and angle will have no reference point. Even the power, punching into the thin air is different from punching on an object. Also the solo balance is different from the balance during contact.

For example, you may maintain good balance when throwing a side kick into the thin air. But when a 300 lb guy runs toward you and tries to take your head off, can your side kick be able to knock him down and still remain balance yourself?

 

[Headhunter]

A technique involves:

1. opportunity,
2. timing,
3. angle,
4. power,
5. balance.

Without opponent, opportunity, timing, and angle will have no reference point. Even the power, punching into the thin air is different from punching on an object. Also the solo balance is different from the balance during contact.

For example, you may maintain good balance when throwing a side kick into the thin air. But when a 300 lb guy runs toward you and tries to take your head off, can your side kick be able to knock him down and still remain balance yourself?

Something that we used to do was practice the forms on the body. E.g if the first move is a step back with an inward block then we get someone to step in with the required punch. That way you work on your balance and your rotation and the timing of your block in relation to the body.

 

[Kiron]

A technique involves:

1. opportunity,
2. timing,
3. angle,
4. power,
5. balance.

Without opponent, opportunity, timing, and angle will have no reference point. Even the power, punching into the thin air is different from punching on an object. Also the solo balance is different from the balance during contact.

For example, you may maintain good balance when throwing a side kick into the thin air. But when a 300 lb guy runs toward you and tries to take your head off, can your side kick be able to knock him down and still remain balance yourself?

I totally agree with you but you forgot to mention the "Attitude".

 

[Tez3]

I don't mind the acrobatics, but to me they belong in an acrobatics competition or a dance competition.

I have two fundamental reasons for not liking the acrobatics in kata and indeed martial arts. the first thing is that I don't think it should be put in to kata where it doesn't belong and secondly I can't do it, not even the splits or a headstand.

 

[DaveB]

Same old thing. Kata sucks, punching air sucks, kumite sucks, point sparring sucks, only real unscripted all out brawling teaches anything. Yawn. Go away, troll.

If that's directed at me I'm very disappointed.

I love kata and love to watch it done well. I think it's one of the best training tools people have come up with.

I dislike kata competition. That makes me a troll?

Well if I'm a troll, your fake news.

 

[DaveB]

Sorry, I just don't think these people are ruining Karate.

(Kata and weapons forms video starts at 49 second mark.)

Its a good group of people that train hard and have dedicated a lot of their lives to karate and shouldn't be disrespected just because you don't like competition.

They are indeed dedicated people, some of those guys in the clip looked awesome. They clearly put a lot of work into looking crisp and powerful.

But they've shown me nothing about the arts they practice or whether they can make use of their respective arts. So as performers they have my respect.