Style bashing

Martial D

Senior Master
Joined
May 18, 2017
Messages
3,407
Reaction score
1,156
One point of view - You are bashing my style!

My point of view - it is harmful and fraudulent to instill in people a false sense of confidence based on nonfunctional BS that will and has gotten many people hurt or killed. It is my duty as a martial artist to dispel these myths wherever I find them.
 

Headhunter

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Messages
4,765
Reaction score
1,598
No it's none of your business what someone does. It's not all about fighting people can do whatever they want who are you to tell them what's good and what's not. You haven't got a duty you do what you do let others do what they want. Thinking you can tell anyone what they can or can't do is just simply arrogant in my eyes.
 
OP
Martial D

Martial D

Senior Master
Joined
May 18, 2017
Messages
3,407
Reaction score
1,156
No it's none of your business what someone does. It's not all about fighting people can do whatever they want who are you to tell them what's good and what's not. You haven't got a duty you do what you do let others do what they want. Thinking you can tell anyone what they can or can't do is just simply arrogant in my eyes.
Ya, who am I to try to help people, and dispel ********. We should just let hucksters and frauds take peoples money, because its nobodies business.

.......I think not.
 

Headhunter

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Messages
4,765
Reaction score
1,598
Ya, who am I to try to help people, and dispel ********. We should just let hucksters and frauds take peoples money, because its nobodies business.

.......I think not.
If someone enjoys training there that's good for them again none of your business if I want to do something like aikido I'm gonna do it, if you tell me not to I'll tell you where to shove your opinion why would I listen to you how do I know your not the fraud as I said people can do whatever they want none of your business
 
OP
Martial D

Martial D

Senior Master
Joined
May 18, 2017
Messages
3,407
Reaction score
1,156
Ya, who am I to try to help people, and dispel ********. We should just let hucksters and frauds take peoples money, because its nobodies business.

.......I think not.

And as an addendum, its not even JUST that angle. Its also for the integrity of combat arts in general. The longer we, as MAists, turn a blind eye to nonfunctional martial arts being taught, and adopt the live and let live mentality about it, the entire game suffers. I think we should be trying to progress the thing as a whole, and part of that is identifying and cutting loose the fatty bits. Sure, some people that have invested years and decades into such nonsense might come away with hurt feelings (hi headhunter), but omelettes are worth the broken eggs.
 
OP
Martial D

Martial D

Senior Master
Joined
May 18, 2017
Messages
3,407
Reaction score
1,156
If someone enjoys training there that's good for them again none of your business if I want to do something like aikido I'm gonna do it, if you tell me not to I'll tell you where to shove your opinion why would I listen to you how do I know your not the fraud as I said people can do whatever they want none of your business
Im not telling anyone not to do anything. I just think people should be educated. If you walk out of aikido class thinking you are equipt to deal with a street situation by it, you are worse off than if you had 0 training at all. False confidence kills a lot of people. I don't think its right to scam people at all, especially not as it could pertain to life or death.
 

Jenna

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,470
Reaction score
713
Location
Cluj
Im not telling anyone not to do anything. I just think people should be educated. If you walk out of aikido class thinking you are equipt to deal with a street situation by it, you are worse off than if you had 0 training at all. False confidence kills a lot of people. I don't think its right to scam people at all, especially not as it could pertain to life or death.
Aikido is a scam? sigh..
 

Andrew Green

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
8,627
Reaction score
452
Location
Winnipeg MB
Ya, who am I to try to help people, and dispel ********. We should just let hucksters and frauds take peoples money, because its nobodies business.

.......I think not.


No, those days are ending anyways. Information is free to anyone, anywhere at anytime. If you think your instructor is teaching techniques wrong you can pull up 100 other instructors doing the same technique on your phone. If a school lies and uses shady business practices online reviews will tell you.

Martial arts is as diverse as team sports. Some are functional in real world, others are combat sports, some are just to look pretty, some are just to improve your health.

So much of the style bashing that goes on really comes across as Football players bashing basketball players because they are terrible at tackling each other. Who cares, have fun, do what you do and recognize that not everyone has the same goals as you. If they are achieving what they want to achieve then they are doing great, doesn't matter if they are failing miserably at doing something else.

Martial artists seem to want to be everything to everyone... and we can't. We shouldn't try.

It's just like any other industry, do what you do, deliver on the promises you make and don't try to create a product that is perfect for every possible need. Think about it, try to make a car that is perfect for everyone. Lamborghini's suck, they can't go off road, have very little ability to haul things and you can't fit a family in them. SUV's suck, they won't win any races against even low end sports cars. etc.

Yet so many martial arts schools try to sell you on the fact that they are great for fitness... yet everyone is out of shape. Or they are useful for self-defence, and teach no real self-defence. Or they teach lifeskill ______, because that's what the mom wants when they have no real process of doing so.

Deliver on the promises you make and all is good. Don't sell me a sports car when I need something that can go off road because that's what you have though.
 

Andrew Green

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
8,627
Reaction score
452
Location
Winnipeg MB
Aikido is a scam? sigh..

The best instruction in any style, regardless of that style, is a scam IF they sell you on a promise they can't deliver. I pull a Bill and Ted and bring Jigoro Kano back to run a school, it's a scam if I tell you he will make you a good boxer, or teach you sport karate because your studying acting and want to get into action movies / shows.
 

Jenna

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
3,470
Reaction score
713
Location
Cluj
The best instruction in any style, regardless of that style, is a scam IF they sell you on a promise they can't deliver. I pull a Bill and Ted and bring Jigoro Kano back to run a school, it's a scam if I tell you he will make you a good boxer, or teach you sport karate because your studying acting and want to get into action movies / shows.
Has some one sold you on a promise they could not deliver?
 

Andrew Green

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 1, 2004
Messages
8,627
Reaction score
452
Location
Winnipeg MB
Has some one sold you on a promise they could not deliver?

Fortunately for me I run the school, I'm the one making the promises, so I try to only make the ones we deliver on.

But in our industry it's pretty common for schools teaching completely different things in completely different ways to have the exact same list of bullet points of benefits. Hell a lot even use the same website company to give them the exact same website right down to the same testimonials.

My belief is that we should celebrate our diversity, not try to be catch all solutions for everything.
 

MI_martialist

Brown Belt
Joined
Feb 3, 2016
Messages
401
Reaction score
44
For example?

One point of view - You are bashing my style!

My point of view - it is harmful and fraudulent to instill in people a false sense of confidence based on nonfunctional BS that will and has gotten many people hurt or killed. It is my duty as a martial artist to dispel these myths wherever I find them.
 

Headhunter

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Messages
4,765
Reaction score
1,598
Im not telling anyone not to do anything. I just think people should be educated. If you walk out of aikido class thinking you are equipt to deal with a street situation by it, you are worse off than if you had 0 training at all. False confidence kills a lot of people. I don't think its right to scam people at all, especially not as it could pertain to life or death.
And you think you have the right to tell people what to do because you're such an expert? Aren't you a Kung fu guy who doesn't even know his own lineage....how do you know what works and what doesn't have you trained the styles you're insulting or is it just guess work
 

Headhunter

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Messages
4,765
Reaction score
1,598
No, those days are ending anyways. Information is free to anyone, anywhere at anytime. If you think your instructor is teaching techniques wrong you can pull up 100 other instructors doing the same technique on your phone. If a school lies and uses shady business practices online reviews will tell you.

Martial arts is as diverse as team sports. Some are functional in real world, others are combat sports, some are just to look pretty, some are just to improve your health.

So much of the style bashing that goes on really comes across as Football players bashing basketball players because they are terrible at tackling each other. Who cares, have fun, do what you do and recognize that not everyone has the same goals as you. If they are achieving what they want to achieve then they are doing great, doesn't matter if they are failing miserably at doing something else.

Martial artists seem to want to be everything to everyone... and we can't. We shouldn't try.

It's just like any other industry, do what you do, deliver on the promises you make and don't try to create a product that is perfect for every possible need. Think about it, try to make a car that is perfect for everyone. Lamborghini's suck, they can't go off road, have very little ability to haul things and you can't fit a family in them. SUV's suck, they won't win any races against even low end sports cars. etc.

Yet so many martial arts schools try to sell you on the fact that they are great for fitness... yet everyone is out of shape. Or they are useful for self-defence, and teach no real self-defence. Or they teach lifeskill ______, because that's what the mom wants when they have no real process of doing so.

Deliver on the promises you make and all is good. Don't sell me a sports car when I need something that can go off road because that's what you have though.
Absolutely I mean I'm doing Jiu Jitsu now and I know it's more of a sport based setting and I know it's got limitations but I enjoy it and have fun doing it so who cares. To many people think they have the right to tell people what to do. I mean martial d says I shouldn't train my style I can say he shouldn't train his what makes his opinion worth more than mine
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,973
Reaction score
10,532
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Ya, who am I to try to help people, and dispel ********. We should just let hucksters and frauds take peoples money, because its nobodies business.

.......I think not.
That would be more useful if you were talking to the prospective student. Talking to the huckster doesn't do much.
 

Headhunter

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Messages
4,765
Reaction score
1,598
And as an addendum, its not even JUST that angle. Its also for the integrity of combat arts in general. The longer we, as MAists, turn a blind eye to nonfunctional martial arts being taught, and adopt the live and let live mentality about it, the entire game suffers. I think we should be trying to progress the thing as a whole, and part of that is identifying and cutting loose the fatty bits. Sure, some people that have invested years and decades into such nonsense might come away with hurt feelings (hi headhunter), but omelettes are worth the broken eggs.
Hurt feelings? Lol I'm more than happy with what I've done and do you really think I care about what you think of the styles I do. If you tried to tell me what I do is rubbish I'd just laugh at you because I wouldn't care less
 

MI_martialist

Brown Belt
Joined
Feb 3, 2016
Messages
401
Reaction score
44
Well, your profile is limited, please tell us what your experience is.

Hurt feelings? Lol I'm more than happy with what I've done and do you really think I care about what you think of the styles I do. If you tried to tell me what I do is rubbish I'd just laugh at you because I wouldn't care less
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,973
Reaction score
10,532
Location
Hendersonville, NC
One point of view - You are bashing my style!

My point of view - it is harmful and fraudulent to instill in people a false sense of confidence based on nonfunctional BS that will and has gotten many people hurt or killed. It is my duty as a martial artist to dispel these myths wherever I find them.
This is one of those areas where there's a lot of grey. There are things that work (have even been found so by those who have to use them in live situations), which are foreign to others and seem problematic to them. Then there are things that are demonstrably incorrect. Where we can separate them, it's not an evil thing to call out the stuff that doesn't work, if only to get people thinking.

But if we get stuck in calling out anything that we don't like - without regard for what evidence there may be that it actually works - then we get into a murky area.

And, of course, there's also the problem of recognizing goals. As some folks have pointed out to me, not everyone trains for fighting ability. For those folks, anything that's not causing injury is okay, even if it's entirely ineffective (from a combat perspective).
 

Tez3

Sr. Grandmaster
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2006
Messages
27,608
Reaction score
4,901
Location
England
Ya, who am I to try to help people, and dispel ********. We should just let hucksters and frauds take peoples money, because its nobodies business.

.......I think not.

What are your qualifications for deciding what works and what doesn't? What if someone looking at you and what you do decides you are wrong and you are misleading students etc? Is an instructor who genuinely believes what he was taught works and so teaches his students a fraud then? Is someone who does a softer style than yours a hucksters because you don't think it works? How do you prove what others teach doesn't work?
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,973
Reaction score
10,532
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Aikido is a scam? sigh..
There's a recurring issue with this. There are some schools that teach in a method that I can't see as producing effective technique in less than 2 years (not to mention some truly bad schools, as all MA will have, even if only briefly). And there are folks who have used Aikido (here, referring to Ueshiba's art) effectively in self-defense, LEO situations, and other live usage. Somewhere between those two are some real answers, including some number (a lot? - I don't know) of schools where good technique is taught in an effective way, but this middle is often ignored. Confirmation bias makes it pretty easy to argue both cases.
 

Latest Discussions

Top