Identical twin studies show that homosexuality is not genetic

Discussion in 'The Study' started by Makalakumu, May 27, 2013.

  1. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Hardly "correcting"-merely pointed out a less charged word. We are, after all, on an internet forum: words are all we have. Others understood what you said to have a negative connotation-you say you didn't mean any, something I'm willing to accept at face value. "Abnormal" generally does have a negative connotation for most U.S. English speakers, though......
     
  2. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Or you could say, "my bad. I didn't know." And carry on, instead of getting defensive.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
     
  3. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Or he can realize its the INTERNET not a term paper. He understood what I was trying to get across. Just like you do when I use the term Abnormal. Change it to whatever feel good word you want. Non-normal, against the norm, not like most people, different then the majority, blah blah blah blah. You all are so wrapped up in this PC blanket you cant even admit Homosexual behavior is different then Normal behavior. Its not bad, worse, wrong, evil or anything else its just different. If it wasn't different there would be no need to study it. There would be non need to classify it, there would be no need to have this conversation.
     
  4. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    OK so go back and change all the "abnormal" to "different (but not bad) then the majority". will that make you feel better?
     
  5. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    If it didn't carry any negative stigma, it wouldn't help you invent probable cause.

    So in other words: :bs:
     
  6. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Really so now your an expert in law enforcement too? I love how you know your on the wrong side of the topic so instead of talking about the topic you spend 3 pages on grammar and word usage. You win
    Im not gay, dont want to be gay, and quite frankly dont care about gay issues. I said my part I think the study on Why is stupid and a waist of time. People are Gay because they are Gay, people are straight because they are straight. If its genetic, chemical, or choice I really dont care it doesnt really matter.

    SO SHOVE THAT UP YOUR BS POLE
     
  7. Sukerkin

    Sukerkin Have the courage to speak softly

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    Before this escalates any further, gentlemen, can I suggest that all those with stirred blood take a look in your respective mirrors and ask yourself if you are handling this topic in a way that does credit to yourself.
     
  8. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    In the original article, it was claimed that 8 large studies from the US, Australia, and Scandinavia all supplied evidence that showed that homosexuality was not genetic. The original studies were not linked in the article. Did you find them? Could you post one that you looked at?

    This is interesting, because I referenced another book earlier that looked into the evolutionary psychology of sexuality and the conclusion that huge numbers of researchers are concluding is that sexuality and sexual orientation are far more fluid then we assumed.perhaps it can be "set" in some people, but from a cross cultural perspective, that number is exceedingly small.

    Case in point, if you looked at the cultures where homosexual relationships are normal and accepted, an overly large percentage of people who perhaps would have claimed to be heterosexual in another culture, now freely engage in homosexual relationships. This is a big problem for people who think sexual orientation is something that you are born with.

    In the end, and this is something I've thought for a long time, perhaps our language is flawed. Perhaps classifying people as homosexual, bisexual or heterosexual is not valid.
     
  9. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    my opinion is that people trot out the term PC when they know they're being jerks and want to make themselves feel better about it.


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  10. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    In the last few days, I have posted a warning in this thread. There have been at least two, possibly more, reminders or hints that people are crossing the line. This is the last warning. Discuss the issue. Leave the insults and shots out.

    ATTENTION ALL USERS:

    Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.

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  11. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Your logic is flawed, sir.

    We study a variety of things that are called "normal." Human sexual behavior in general, for one-various mores and customs for another. History. Art. English literature. Biology. Physics.......etc., etc., etc.

    More to the point-for a heterosexual, like myself, or-I'm assuming-you, having sex with a member of the same gender is abnormal. For the homosexual, it is, in fact, normal-and it would be abnormal for them to have congress with a member of the opposite gender. it is in this context-and only in this context-that your use of "abnormal" might not have any charge or connotation, but that isn't how you are using it.
     
  12. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    ...although we see that in many circumstances, such as prison or the navy, such a person often enters into consensual of this sort, showing that preference is what's at issue indeed.
     
  13. Aiki Lee

    Aiki Lee Master of Arts

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    I somehow missed all the action continuing here so here is my lengthy responses to to everything. Please excuse me as my words still run together in places when I copy this from Word to MT.


    It is most certainly NOT a mental illness.
    From the National Alliance on MentalIllness:
    “A mental illness is a medical condition thatdisrupts a person's thinking, feeling, mood, ability to relate to others anddaily functioning. Just as diabetes is a disorder of the pancreas, mentalillnesses are medical conditions that often result in a diminished capacity forcoping with the ordinary demands of life.”
    Anyoneidentifying as non-hetero does not automatically have a disruption in thinking,mood, feelings, daily functions, or the ability to relate with others.
    There isnothing unique about not-hetero individuals that would qualify them to bementally ill based on orientation alone. Just because a person’s brainchemistry may be different does not mean they are ill.

    Normal is a subjective term. It meanssomething different to everyone. There is no such thing as ‘normal’ inactuality. There are only what we perceive to be acceptable or unacceptable andthat will vary from person to person.

    Society’s definition of right is oftenwrong, just look at the Civil Rights campaign. A lot of people thought it wasjustified in keeping minorities segregated and that it was a man’s job to keepwomen “in their place”. That’s not right, that is just what has been acceptedin the past. As humanity grows as a species we must constantly challenge perceivedinjustices and right the wrongs of society.
    Studying something is done so that one canunderstand. Something doesn’t have to be “abnormal” to be studied. I couldstudy the family dynamics of Irish Americans, are they abnormal just because noteveryone is Irish American? Being different is not the same as not beingnormal. When people don’t understand something they study it.

    If a man identifying as straight has sexwith another man is he gay now? Has that changed his way of life? Sexualintercourse is an act, not a way of life. I’m fond of red heads, is that a wayof life? There is more to a person than just their orientation.


    No that is not abnormal. You don’t look at a balding man and say “that’s not normal”. You look at it and think “sometimes men go bald”. The majority does not define normal. As it was already said byothers, the majority decides what is common. White people may be the majority in this country but that doesn’t make them more “normal” compared to minorities. See how odd it would be to look at Hispanics, Blacks, Asians, andother ethnicities and say “you’re abnormal”?

    All people live by some sort of moral. But like Steve said, morals can be different depending on culture and belief systems. Personally I draw the line that immorality stems from causing harm to people and homosexuality causes no harm, therefore how can it be immoral?

    Actually normal implies that things are as they should be. In physical health having cancerous skin cells would be abnormal but having a good tan wouldn’t be. But if I burn under the sun and another person tans are either of us abnormal? Different yes, but not abnormal.
    Abnormal implies something is not the way it should be, and who are we to say that people attracted to adults of the same sex is not how they should be? A person faking being straight to avoid stigma would not be doing what is normal for him or her; it doesn’t feel right to them.

    It is a combination of all three. Sexual attraction is partially chemical, partially psychological, and partial socially constructed. There is no one answer to it. And just because there is not “advantage”to being gay (and really that’s for the individual to decide), doesn’t mean itis not biological. What is the advantage of having green eyes as opposed to hazel? None, but it is genetically determined.

     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2013
  14. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Interestingly,John, given the claims of the countries involved, I think I did look at some of the same studies-in other words, the writers of the article are claiming findings that are completely opposite the conclusions put forth by the actual experimenters.

    There's this one : A genetic study of male sexual orientation.Bailey JM, Pillard RC.Department of Psychology, Northwestern University, Evanston, Ill 60208

    and this one: Genetic and environmental influences on sexual orientation and its correlates in an Australian twin sample. Bailey, J. Michael; Dunne, Michael P.; Martin, Nicholas G. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology

    and this one:Genetic and Environmental Effects on Same-sex Sexual Behavior: A Population Study of Twins in Sweden , which studied more than 7000 pairs of twins in Sweden, and concluded-as most have-that there are genetic as well as environmental factors that seem to determine or influence sexuality.

    So the article is pretty much B.S., John.


    See above. I know there's nothing "fluid" about my sexuality, though-over the years, I've had numerous gay friends, some of whom hit on me, and-even at my drunkest and most horny-I have never been slightly interested.


    Define "overly large percentage." I mean, essentially, what you're saying is that there's more evidence of certain sexual behaviors in environments where those behaviors are accepted-I'd posit that it's not that there's a higher percentage of homosexuals, but a higher percentage of open homosexuality.

    I mean, you don't really think that there are no homosexuals in Saudi Arabia, Iran or Afghanistan, do you? :lol:

    People classify themselves, John-one could say much the same about race:am I black or African-American or Indian or Native-American or white or Polynesian or "other?" Does it matter? In the end, I am all of those things-some to a lesser degree than others, perhaps-and, quite truly, none of them. I am simply who I choose to be. Sexuality may be the same, but basic drives are basic drives-I don't much like some cheeses-as in, find them completely unpalatable-but I bet I'd eat them if I were starving....this is, of course, not the best analogy-I'm pretty good at taking care of myself, sexually, and would prefer that over congress with another man, I think, just as I prefer love making with my wife over masturbation-but you get the idea.
     
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  15. DennisBreene

    DennisBreene 3rd Black Belt

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    It's interesting to me that the statistics in the article from Northwestern show about 1/2 the incidence of homosexuality in dizygotic (fraternal) twins as compared to monozygotic (identical) twins and another 50% drop in incidence when compared to adoptive paired siblings with no genetic linkage. That suggests pretty strongly that homosexuality is strongly linked with genetics and also demonstrates the importance of adequate control groups. And I agree with elder. From a societal perspective it matters little. What is ultimately relevant is how one identifies oneself. The only marginal benefit to the general population is that this kind of evidence for genetic influence reinforces the wisdom of leaving people alone to live life as they wish when it is of no consequence to others.
     
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  16. jezr74

    jezr74 Master of Arts

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    Have been on the road so behind on posts, but for what its worth, quoted from a mate of mine who is a genetic scientist.


    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4 Beta
     
  17. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    This seems to indicate that the phenomenon is genetic and environmental. Which brings up a point I brought up earlier, if homosexuality is epigenetic, it's not a choice, but neither is it something that you are necessarily born with or can pass on to your offspring.

    I also think this shows that the subject of orientation is a lot more uncertain than it is often portrayed in the media.
     
  18. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    Thanks for looking up some of these studies. I've been busy and let this conversation drift off.

    Yet, if you were born in a different culture, it might have been easier to make different choices sexually. Is this because the individual was genetically predisposed toward same sex unions, or is it the product of deep seated sexual mores? Perhaps the answer lies somewhere in between. Perhaps some people have a drive that makes them attracted to who they are and perhaps others have a more flexible sexuality? Genetic testing wouldn't necessarily reveal someone without the "sexuality" gene, but with more flexible standards.

    What would happen if we could go back and test people in past cultures with more flexible standards? How about cultures that exist right now? How about prison "gay for the stay" populations?
     
  19. Blade96

    Blade96 Senior Master

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    why do we need a study for this and a study for that to try and explain why people like or dont like what they like and dont like?

    Cant we just accept that we are just different?

    I dont like babies and toddlers. But I sure as heck dont need a study to try figure out why I dont like them.

    To me this is ridiculous.
     
  20. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    These area all good questions, given the obvious and inherently flexible nature of human sexuality. I think, though, that in most cases, some sort of preference one way or the other would be noted. As in "gay for the stay," which might be about sexuality but is more often about power and dominance. Culturally, in some of the examples you speak of, this is pretty much true: in cultures where such flexibility has been more acceptable, sex with one gender served one set of purposes, and sex with the same gender served another.123
     

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