How many and differances in Shaolin Kempo

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - General' started by James Kovacich, Jan 12, 2005.

  1. KempoGuy06

    KempoGuy06 Grandmaster

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    Yes i understand that too. I am looking forward to the more advanced stuff.

    Are the katas and later forms more 'karate' or 'kung fu' style? For the purpose of the discussion i have seen some of 1st kata and would say it is more 'KF' style, correct? As far as what i have actually watch that form looks very good. I love to watch the higher ranks do this form.

    Sorry if this is getting boring but i find it fascinating and from what it seems even though we are both SKK our styles have their differences.

    B
     
  2. Mariachi Joe

    Mariachi Joe Brown Belt

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    Gufbal is right at orange you learn 2,5, and 18. 10 is learned at blue. where do you learn, is it ussd?
     
  3. Iron Leopard

    Iron Leopard Green Belt

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    at ussd it's 6 at white, 3 and 7 at yellow, 2, 5 18 at orange and 4,8,9 and 12 at purple. in some rare instances you might learn a couple of those early such at 7 at white or even 2 at yellow. but usually not. If someone is ready for more material you give it as a kempo technique not a DM.
     
  4. Gufbal1982

    Gufbal1982 Purple Belt

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    Wait...you're with GM Brassard, right? He might be different...I know at FVSSD you learn 3,5 and 2 at orange.
     
  5. Hand Sword

    Hand Sword Grandmaster

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    IMHO, That Kata is more karate. The moves are hard, and explosive, moving straight through the opponent. Same for all of the katas. They have their soft moments here and there, but, generally, are mostly hard, karate type. However, as you advance, you will get more kung fuish ideas put into what you are doing, more and more. Between that and the Kempo's, you'll be able to flow back and forth between ways, very well.
     
  6. Mariachi Joe

    Mariachi Joe Brown Belt

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    I agree, both Kata's I know are have more of a Karate feel to them.
     
  7. KempoGuy06

    KempoGuy06 Grandmaster

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    Thats pretty interesting. I saw 1st kata again last night and thinking back on it i see what you mean.

    As for the debate on what combos. i was wrong it is 2 & 5 that i learn at orange. at my school it is 6 & 7 at white, 3 at yellow and 2 & 5 at orange as for what i know now. I miss understood what someone told me and thought it was 10. Sorry for the mix up

    B
     
  8. DavidCC

    DavidCC Master of Arts

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    I think using metaphorical language such as "it is more kung-fu like" can only take your understanding, and the discussion, so far.

    I think this mixing of early train linear, later train circular, is not so good in the long term.

    But I think it makes a good business model.

    But it is a fact pretty deeply ingrained into the system and so hard to fight against. "External to Internal" so while I am teahcing the external elements in the early techniques I start them on the foundation they will need for internal work later - breath control, relaxed movement, posture, posture and posture. Did I mention posture?

    But I never use the metaphors "karate-like" that just carreis about 1000 times as many connotations as I want to convey.
     
  9. Danjo

    Danjo Master Black Belt

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    David, while I see what you're talking about here, I think that the broader generalities are what's being discussed. Okinawan and Japanese Karate is generally more linear than most forms of "Kung Fu". Now, when looking at the curriculum of SKK, there are techniques and forms that are specifically from Karate such as pinan 1-5. So for the sake of the question being asked, I don't think that using a shorthand way of speaking like "Karate-like" or "Kung fu-like" is out of line or confusing.
     
  10. Mariachi Joe

    Mariachi Joe Brown Belt

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    When does SKK become more Kung Fu like than Karate like? Is it after Shodan or sometime before
     
  11. marlon

    marlon Master Black Belt

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    it isd supposed to start at green belt but really gets going only at nidan in my opinion.
    also the Villari threads have been closed for review (just when the bashing stopped it seems) so i will post this here instead of the Who Is Fred Villari thread. I found it in another thread and it is how i look at Villari's legitimacy in formalizing / creating his shaolin kempo the systems mentioned are considered legitimate and traditional:




    one side question is how do we know what "naha" karate really looked like.
    Today we say that the 2 typical naha schools are goju ryu and Uechi ryu, but both those schools were created with a LOT of direct influence from chinese arts. Both the goju founder, Chojun miyagi, and his teacher, [SIZE=-1]Kanryo Higaona,[/SIZE] spent a lot of time training white crane in china before creating goju (and most of its katas).
    The founder of Uechiryu, Uechi[SIZE=-1] Kanbun,[/SIZE] had almost no martial art training at all before moving to china to train (well, to trade, but he trained aswell) -and after that he didnt train at all when he got back to okinawa and didnt start again unit he moved to mainland japan.

    I dont know of any "naha" school today that is not based on one of these styles, and how do we know what distiguished karate from the naha region before this significant flood of fukien white crane influnce came along at the turn of the century?

    I would say that the pre-Miyagi/Kanryo/Uechi brand of orignal "naha" karate is deader that "tomari" karate.
     
  12. Jdokan

    Jdokan Black Belt

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    I feel it depends upon how your instructor teaches. My instructor used to discuss the differences between the two very early in my training....You'll probably find that it will depend on how well you move. Linear moves are typically easier to get proficient at...once a particular level of skill is reached (regardless of rank) you may be introduced to the circular training methods...
    By todays standards I find that my old dojo was introducing students to circular training methods at an earlier time....
    Peace!
     
  13. Mariachi Joe

    Mariachi Joe Brown Belt

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    Well I'm at blue belt with ussd and so far it's still mostly linear with very much a karate feel to it.
     
  14. Hisgracecase

    Hisgracecase White Belt

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    I hope I have finally found the forum I've been looking for. I would just like to swap thoughts with someone else who is in Vilarri's system. I had studied Judo in my younger years, and wanted to take some sort of karate' training. After the
    big storm of Aug. '05 in my part of the country, there wasn't many schools to choose from. I chose Vilarri because I could distance study. So far so good. Would appreciate some thoughts on the system, and some encouragement.
    Thanks.................Doc
     
  15. Hand Sword

    Hand Sword Grandmaster

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    Well, with that, welcome aboard Hisgracecase! Taking up any training and discipline in the arts is beneficial for you. For now, if it's strictly a situational thing for you, train how you must, distant or whatever. Anything is better than nothing after all!

    As for any specific questions feel free to ask them. There are many here that can help you, both from that style and others. It all overlaps and can be useful to all. So, what would you like to Know?
     
  16. Danjo

    Danjo Master Black Belt

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    Well, are you actually training in a regular school, or is it strictly distance learning? If the latter, then I'm afraid I can't recommend that type of training as it will do you more harm than good. Unless you already have a solid background in a karate system that has taught you proper basics so that you know what it is supposed to feel like, you're simply going to be guessing at whether you have it right or not. Are you training with a partner? If not, then you're going to have even bigger problems due to your lack of being able to gauge distance and timing. Sorry to be so negative here, but trying to learn the martial arts that way is about as useful as having a fake steering wheel and teaching yourself to drive while watching a video sitting on your couch. You may seem like you are learning it, but in reality you can't learn until you get a lot of practice behind the wheel of a car. In fact, the fellow driving without the instructional video will be better off than the one pretending to drive sitting on the couch watching the video. What you need to do is find a place to train live. Even if it means doing something like TKD or whatever. There's really no comparison, and you'll avoid teaching yourself the bad habits that come from self-study.
     
  17. Hisgracecase

    Hisgracecase White Belt

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    Thanks:
    I have done some work in a K-school, (TKD, Seido) so I have a decent groundwork of what movements should feel like.
    I was attracted to SKK by an old tape of GM Vilarri and liked the way he moved. It seemed to my limited knowledge
    to be compact, quick and effective. I must also add that
    although street effectiveness is of primary function, I am
    drawn to Kempo by symmetry and beauty of movement.
    It's great to watch someone who is very adept perform pinan or kata. I am involved in SKK for self-defense,
    physical fitness, and plain old enjoyment. I just wanted
    an unbiased opinion on the Vilarri SKK system as one to stick with through to completion. At this point I am just passed the orange belt stage...................thanks Doc
     
  18. kosho

    kosho 3rd Black Belt

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    If you are enjoying it then stay with it. There is more to kempo then what is at the surface. The deeper you look the more info you will get out of it. also go to seminars and seek out information. ask your instructor and If you do not like the answer look for it and find it. SKK is a great art. ( SYSTEM ) just work and do not settle for being good work on being Great. Know the system not just the movements and forms.
    Kosho
     
  19. kempo7

    kempo7 White Belt

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    The Shaolin Kempo system you are studying and a good are as long as you are studying under a competent instructor. If you are learning from a distance via video then I agree with Danjo
     
  20. LawDog

    LawDog Master Black Belt

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    If a person studies only via video he will have the same chance in the street as the lay person who acts as his own attorney does in court.
    :sniper:
     

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