How do you defend against this? (Knife Attack)

[Cyriacus]

Theres no Isshin Ryu near You then
:lurk:

 

[Chris Parker]

First off, one is allowed to assume, I am assuming an expert in jujutsu or aikido can execute this throw. I haven't done martial arts for 3 years thus rendering me a mukyu, I am not taking any ranked martial arts thus i am a mukyu. I lived in israel for 6 years and my brother went to Akban, I simply did what he did at home (The exercises and have continued with it till this day). 20km is quite a distance here due to the heavy traffic. Here is a list of the martial arts taught near me; Bujinkan, Eskrima, Muay Thai, Muay Boran, Sambo, Krav Maga, Shaolin Kung Fu, JKD, Pankration, Boxing, Tang Soo Do, Savate, Kendo, Fencing, Karate, Vale Tudo, Hapkido, Aikido, Judo, Taekwondo, Wing Chun, BJJ, Wrestling, Iaido, shotokan, goju, and wado karate, Chanquan, and Taichi quan. I'm sure you can think of many more but even if you can i'm sure i can find them and train at that martial art. The Teachers might be fake but its still in a 20km radius, i just haven't bothered to check those i'm not intrested in. I am currently 16, I did kung fu for 7 years. An aikido throw which utilizes a wrist lock can be a helpful technique, im not saying that the situation perfectly replicates the use of the move put you can modify the starting position to the situation.

Could you please tell me what i've said that made you think that i'm not particularly informed and I'll explain my reasoning to it.

Yes, you're allowed to assume. But you might want to realize that there are members here who have been training for two to three times longer than you've been alive, so don't get too upset if your assumptions are corrected. In terms of lists, yeah, that's pretty basic (from my perspective). I can think of quite a number that you don't have listed, and won't have listed... as some are only available in very particular locations, and to have one means you don't have the others. I'm guessing you don't live in Japan...?

In terms of what you've posted, well, pretty much everything in your "pick a martial art" thread, but here we have the comments about "disciple level", the mention of Shiho Nage (pretty sure you're thinking of Irimi Nage, and even then, not really advised), the ideas of using the jacket "as a whip", and, well, pretty much this whole post:

If he doesn't stop his full bore charge and you have passed the disciple phase and into the expert phase as a jujitsuka or an aikidoka you could probably flip him over. Now the whip was mean to be used as an attack to the face using the metal zipper as the edged point of the jacket whip. Presuming it would work side stepping would solve this situation easily.

Though instinctively I would side step I'd also have to immobilize him, my best guess break his elbow and aim for his knees. If you're really pumped adrenaline wise I'd say it's possible to go for a straight forward grab and get your hand pierced as you gouge his eyes and murder him.

IMHO you should simulate this with a wooden knife or tango on a daily basis. Get a friend who is the attacker and just tell him surprise me at any time. Last summer my friend asked me to do that to him with my dulled katana. Of course once he got the hang of his jujitsu technique I got hurt but so did he from me bashing him with a dulled 33 inch blade; I didn't try to break his arm since it would have been fairly easy at the beginning but as we progressed I put more force and speed to my strikes which did end up with a fracture arm but he healed pretty fast.

as well as this one:

You need to be aware of your attacker, with this much distance you wanna focus on his feet and upper body, there will be a small twitch before he takes off at that moment take a kicking stance and focus on the knife, best chance is to side step, grab his wrist, pull, kick, knock him over and knee the knife out of his hand and kill him. In a real life situation knock him down and try disorienting him while you run away to a public area.

You're honestly making the same mistake that many do, until they get some experience, thinking that techniques actually have relevance, looking at the idea of different martial arts being made up of different techniques (referring to "silat scarf", aikido throws, "bursting" techniques of Krav Maga, and so on).

 

[Dolev]

I'm assuming someone who has passed the disciple level can execute a well timed attack to counter his stab. I'm not particularly upset, I'm trying to figure out why I'm wrong to see how to improve it.

I have no experience in silat but from demonstration that i've seen the scarf is pretty nifty, all martial arts use the same basics but more advanced techniques have no relevance to one another. If you could excuse my lack of terminology but I've only recently taken interest in Aikido and Silat. Bursting in my opinion is pretty accurate towards what Krav Maga uses, i'll use an example i'm more familiar with which wouldn't work in this situation but a certain technique in krav maga thats in my mind would work. In Muay Boran there is a move called Tai Khao Phra Sumaru, defending and attacking at the same time using both arms and a knee.

I live in Nonthaburi, now I'm sure an Isshin Ryu and Shito Ryu and Kyokushin and Uechi Ryu all exist, they're simply a little further away.
48 years of martial arts is impressive, even 32 is. I'd like to meet these people if possible.

 

[MJS]

So my first thought of a x block was met with a 'ehh.....' I picked up Black Belt Magazine told for the first time in 15 years for the article on Hee-Il Cho, and flipping through it I find another article - "Project X - Why you need to revisit the traditional x-block for your self defense needs" Interesting article, makes some good points on how to use it (not against knife though) effectively.

IMO, the X block is a good block, however, like everything, it has its purposes, and I dont feel that using it for a knife is one of them, but thats just me. Some of the knife defenses that I've done, as far as techs go, do consist of a X type block, however, 1 arm is used first, to redirect, with the 2nd coming in immediately after, for the control.

 

[oftheherd1]

I took your advice, i hit myself in the eye and went to the clinic, i have to wear an eye-patch kinda thing till Friday. I'm not even kidding, at least its better than the time i got glass shards in my eye!
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Could you please tell me what i've said that made you think that i'm not particularly informed and I'll explain my reasoning to it.

Well, I must admit I was a little surprised at your statement in the top quote here. If was intended to be tongue and cheek, perhaps the use of some emoticons would be helpful.

FWIW, nobody is questioning your knowledge or ability per se, simply pointing out what you are saying, and how you are describing it doesn't agree with their experience. That's OK, it happens to me some. Sometimes it is probably my lack of ability to explain properly, other times they don't have the training experience I have, and no doubt sometimes, I am just mistaken in what I say. But honestly, you have had me thinking you were trying to impress us with knowledge you didn't seem to have by what you were saying, or maybe it was the way you were saying it.

BTW, what country are you in now? Twenty-nine martial arts in a 20 km radius is amazing. All they all different schools and locations? That is amazing! I am glad to see there is such a place where so many people are inspired to learn so many different martial arts.

 

[Dolev]

I live in nonthaburi, I'm trying to grasp real life situations using "common" sense. I dont have much experience outside of Changquan, and my information might be wrong since i started when i was 6 (Basics) and stopped when i was 13. I won't try to impress you since i wont gain anything from it, I joined a discussion, it's okay if someone fixes me, i just want to know where i was wrong so i can broaden my horizons.

My eye will be fine, I mean no real harm happened. I didn't hit myself particularly hard, just very accurately.

 

[oftheherd1]

...

My eye will be fine, I mean no real harm happened. I didn't hit myself particularly hard, just very accurately.

What did you learn from your experience?

 

[MJS]

HAHAHA, man I love you. You're really knowledgeable, I'm not.
Hardened street fighter, I'm 16 in the very few brawls I was in there were no knives involved maybe a bat at most and that's when you run. Anyways I think he could've utilized the bursting techniques used in krav maga. I mean considering you're the idiot who put your family in danger There isn't much of an argument to be made. Knives are dangerous, beating an armed opponent needs more than skill, you need luck. Wrapping the opponent is near impossible but what a about usin the jacket as a whip. Stabbing motions are usually circular, put together with a charge your opponent won't be expecting you to charge in close. So how about charging in and grabbing his wrist while turning and executing a throw, the turnig is so you have a better view at the knife since he will hug and hammer away at your back.

I like your challenges they make me think of other possible ways of why I should run when confronted with an armed opponent

If he doesn't stop his full bore charge and you have passed the disciple phase and into the expert phase as a jujitsuka or an aikidoka you could probably flip him over. Now the whip was mean to be used as an attack to the face using the metal zipper as the edged point of the jacket whip. Presuming it would work side stepping would solve this situation easily.

Though instinctively I would side step I'd also have to immobilize him, my best guess break his elbow and aim for his knees. If you're really pumped adrenaline wise I'd say it's possible to go for a straight forward grab and get your hand pierced as you gouge his eyes and murder him.

IMHO you should simulate this with a wooden knife or tango on a daily basis. Get a friend who is the attacker and just tell him surprise me at any time. Last summer my friend asked me to do that to him with my dulled katana. Of course once he got the hang of his jujitsu technique I got hurt but so did he from me bashing him with a dulled 33 inch blade; I didn't try to break his arm since it would have been fairly easy at the beginning but as we progressed I put more force and speed to my strikes which did end up with a fracture arm but he healed pretty fast.

To address a few things from each of these posts:

There are a number of 'techniques' for deal with a knife. IMHO, I've seen alot of good ones, and alot of poor ones. Keep in mind, that the techniques are simply ideas. They are not set in stone, sure shot things. IMO, as others have said, including myself, gaining control, should be the first thing. Without control, all the techniques aren't going to matter.

Using a jacket as a whip....keep in mind that thats probably going to be a 1 shot thing, and IMO, not necessarily a sure shot thing in the first place. Yeah, I know you're banking on hitting with the zipper, but what if you miss? What if it has no effect? This is why, if anything, you'd be better off tossing the jacket as a quick distraction and then getting away or doing something else.

I would seriously take a look at some of these techs that you're describing and ask yourself how effective things will be, when you're under pressure. Keep in mind, that alot of the fancy twisting, flipping stuff thats taught, would most likely get someone seriously hurt or killed, were they to do that if the guy with the knife was doing anything other than just stabbing and standing looking pretty while the defender goes thru his defense.

 

[Blindside]

My eye will be fine, I mean no real harm happened. I didn't hit myself particularly hard, just very accurately.

Scratched cornea?

 

[Dolev]

What did you learn from your experience?

Dont use hard materials to experiment, but soft ones, like a silk robe.

MJS; so what about a slapping game as someone mentioned earlier, but with a kick. Or a kick to the back of the knee
Could you give a name of a technique that works?

Nah, just hyperemia, but I'm not supposed to strain my eye that's why i have a patch.
Anyways, i gotta go run 3 miles then to bed it's nearly 1 am

 

[oftheherd1]

Dolev - There is no such thing as a bad martial art. Many do things differently, but they all have good things to offer. We just have to learn them as the masters have learned and passed down.

From some of the comments you have made, you might want to look at Hapkido, if it is indeed taught as a MA, instead of as some places do; the instructor going to a seminar or two and claiming to be a Hapkido Master, and capable of teaching Hapkido as a separate art. In fact those types don't, since they can't.

Look for a dedicated school. They can teach you to do some of the things you alude to, but don't seem to really understand, such as moving into an attack. I don't always agree with my fellow martial artists, when they claim something is impossible, or too difficult to use in real life. Hapkio teaches a lot of those things. But you must be fast and accurate. Otherwise you have placed yourself right in your opponent's sphere of power. Also, Hapkido and Aikido usually attempt to place you where you can manipulate your opponent into a position where he cannot strike you as is often mentioned as a vulnerability.

Even so, some of your statements are a little ill advised in my opinion. You mentioned giving up your hand to a piercing by the knife to trap it. Once you have been stabbed through the palm, how will you trap the knife? That is never something Hapkido would teach. We may take a knife away from an opponent and stab or slice him long and deep, but we aren't going to intentionally damage ourselves. Why should we? We may need that hand against other opponents.

But I applaud you saying you wish to learn. That is good. We all should want to do that.

 

[MJS]

MJS; so what about a slapping game as someone mentioned earlier, but with a kick. Or a kick to the back of the knee
Could you give a name of a technique that works?

Could you point me to the post in question? Not sure what you're talking about.

 

[Dolev]

As to the knife to the palm, i was never being serious; but if you theoretically get the knife to pierce between your ring fingers metacarpus and your middle fingers metacarpus you should be able to garb his wrist with your index finger and your thumb- i wouldn't recommend it, you lose your middle and ring finger permanently and it might be to much to bear. I think I'm going to join a Kung fu class, i haven't found a specific technique but Sanda looks good and so does Muay Thai (I'm well aware Muay Thai isn't kung fu). I'll look up some good hapkido schools and check em' out tomorrow, Thanks for the awesome feedback .

Edit: I know that fights come down to the fighters, but i'm looking for something that works for me

 

[Dolev]

Originally Posted by Cyriacus
How? With Your aura of Jujitsukaness that stops knifes from murdering You? Under some circumstances, defense is impossible. In the video, defense is highly unlikely without restraining the person. What You do after that is irrelevant. A slapfighter could work from there. But You have to get there first. Remember that He will crash into You, trying to stab You at a rate of 2-3 thrusts a second.

I'm assuming that's what he meant, now if you kick the arm or hand (preferable) his grip/thrusts will weaken and a disarm will be easier if he hasn't lost the knife already. Possibly the most important thing is not to freak out when you get cut, but sidestepping seems like a good follow up.

 

[MJS]

As to the knife to the palm, i was never being serious; but if you theoretically get the knife to pierce between your ring fingers metacarpus and your middle fingers metacarpus you should be able to garb his wrist with your index finger and your thumb- i wouldn't recommend it, you lose your middle and ring finger permanently and it might be to much to bear. I think I'm going to join a Kung fu class, i haven't found a specific technique but Sanda looks good and so does Muay Thai (I'm well aware Muay Thai isn't kung fu). I'll look up some good hapkido schools and check em' out tomorrow, Thanks for the awesome feedback .

Edit: I know that fights come down to the fighters, but i'm looking for something that works for me

Ummmm.....what????

Originally Posted by Cyriacus
How? With Your aura of Jujitsukaness that stops knifes from murdering You? Under some circumstances, defense is impossible. In the video, defense is highly unlikely without restraining the person. What You do after that is irrelevant. A slapfighter could work from there. But You have to get there first. Remember that He will crash into You, trying to stab You at a rate of 2-3 thrusts a second.

I'm assuming that's what he meant, now if you kick the arm or hand (preferable) his grip/thrusts will weaken and a disarm will be easier if he hasn't lost the knife already. Possibly the most important thing is not to freak out when you get cut, but sidestepping seems like a good follow up.

I'll address each part of this post.

1) I'd have to ask for clarification from the OP, however, you may be mistaking the 'slapping' for a parry. I've done some knife drills where various stabs were given, and the hands are using to parry the knife. This is a drill mostly to work footwork, body movement, as well as some basic defense. But no, IMHO, doing nothing but slapping/parrying isn't a good defense.

2) Kicking the knife or the hand is a movie stunt that IMO, is suicide in real life. Why offer up another limb to get cut??

 

[geezer]

Reading though these posts reminds me of the time I was at a family gathering and everybody was talking about how proud they were of my step-brother's son who was then a 12-year-old black belt. He mentioned to me that he had learned to defend against knife attacks. I took him aside and told him to never mess with a guy armed with a knife. Run, hide, grab something and throw it, whatever, but understand that fighting back is the absolute last resort, and that survival is the best you can hope for. Even if you are a five foot tall 12-year-old blackbelt!

Needless to say he didn't believe me. I mean after all he had the black belt right? And who was I? His middle-aged step-uncle who does some kinda MA that doesn't even have belts! So to make the point, I grabbed a harmless kitchen spatula and asked him if he thought he could defend against it if it were a knife. He said sure. So I charged him, knocked him to the floor and "stabbed" him with the spatula about twenty times. Boy, did his eyes get big. My wife went all ballistic on me for "beating up on a little kid". But my step brother, the boy's father, understood perfectly ...and so did the kid. Maybe the lesson will keep him from doing something stupid down the road.

As to "Dolev", I understand you want a reasonable and reliable empty-handed knife-defense that you can count on. The bad news (as has already been stated) is that such a defense doesn't exist. There are some approaches that are just unrealistic and really stupid, and others that are better. Some of each have been discussed here. The better ones are very simple, direct, powerful and delivered with focused, violent even desperate aggression. Improvised weapons can help even the odds, if you can get your hands on them in time. But a lot of attacks happen before you are even aware that there's a threat. Which technique will protect you when you suddenly realize that you have just been stabbed from behind and didn't even know it until you felt that sharp pain like a hard punch, felt the warm sticky blood on your fingers as you grab the spot, and caught a glimpse of the other guy walking away? Food for thought.

 

[Dolev]

I'll edit this post later with a detailed explanation, getting stabbed in the palm was a joke, theoretically it's possible but you're just sacrificing a limb for nothing.
About the "there is no bad art that is given from masters etc." I agree, there are bad fighters.
About hapkido, it sounds intresting i'll check it out, but im more inclined to take kung fu (Possibly sanda) or muay thai

 

[MJS]

Reading though these posts reminds me of the time I was at a family gathering and everybody was talking about how proud they were of my step-brother's son who was then a 12-year-old black belt. He mentioned to me that he had learned to defend against knife attacks. I took him aside and told him to never mess with a guy armed with a knife. Run, hide, grab something and throw it, whatever, but understand that fighting back is the absolute last resort, and that survival is the best you can hope for. Even if you are a five foot tall 12-year-old blackbelt!

Needless to say he didn't believe me. I mean after all he had the black belt right? And who was I? His middle-aged step-uncle who does some kinda MA that doesn't even have belts! So to make the point, I grabbed a harmless kitchen spatula and asked him if he thought he could defend against it if it were a knife. He said sure. So I charged him, knocked him to the floor and "stabbed" him with the spatula about twenty times. Boy, did his eyes get big. My wife went all ballistic on me for "beating up on a little kid". But my step brother, the boy's father, understood perfectly ...and so did the kid. Maybe the lesson will keep him from doing something stupid down the road.

As to "Dolev", I understand you want a reasonable and reliable empty-handed knife-defense that you can count on. The bad news (as has already been stated) is that such a defense doesn't exist. There are some approaches that are just unrealistic and really stupid, and others that are better. Some of each have been discussed here. The better ones are very simple, direct, powerful and delivered with focused, violent even desperate aggression. Improvised weapons can help even the odds, if you can get your hands on them in time. But a lot of attacks happen before you are even aware that there's a threat. Which technique will protect you when you suddenly realize that you have just been stabbed from behind and didn't even know it until you felt that sharp pain like a hard punch, felt the warm sticky blood on your fingers as you grab the spot, and caught a glimpse of the other guy walking away? Food for thought.

QFT!! Certainly some sage advice in this post!

 

[oftheherd1]

I'll edit this post later with a detailed explanation, getting stabbed in the palm was a joke, theoretically it's possible but you're just sacrificing a limb for nothing.
...

Well, you need to be careful. If it isn't obvious from what you say, or if there is even a chance you could be misunderstood, you should rephrase or use emoticons, or both. We do that here often. It lessens the chances of making us look foolish.

 

[Dolev]

I'm replying to this thread as the situation puts us in, i'd never try to fight an armed assailant, i'd try to negotiate my way out if its impossible i run, if that is also denied fighting it is, a guy with a knife is a 100th dan fighter.

Even though i'm 16 i have a bunch of weapons, many times I've cut myself and shot myself (Rubber tipped bolts from a crossbow hurt like a *****); Even when unintended weapons pose a threat. I don't like violence, i don't get into fights with delinquents but with friends, sure it gets aggressive and there's blood at times but through thick and thin we are friends, most of the time these are sparring matches.