How do you defend against this? (Knife Attack)

[Cyriacus]

To be bluntly honest, it's far less realistic than might be expected. With the effects of adrenaline in the situation, once the knife hand is caught, the immediate response (natural response) is to try to regain control of that arm (and thereby regaining control of the knife itself). It's only when that hasn't worked that the knifeman might (and I stress might) think of changing hands. The thing to realize about such tactics is that they are still fairly fine motor, and consciously made decisions, neither of which are really there for you in a high adrenaline situation. What is easy in training is damn impossible in reality.

The only real benefit I can think of is that it will gear the students up to be aware at all times of where the weapon is, in order to ensure that it is controlled at all times. But as a realistic tactic for an attacker? Nope. You're better off getting your students to handle someone trying to violently pull the knife out of the defenders grip... because that, alone, is very difficult to deal with, and essential when you are dealing with realistic knife defense.

Of course it isnt likely - Id just forgotten that changing the knife to the other hand was a thing.

 

[MJS]

Not at all, I never once mentioned relying on one strike. I teach quite the opposite. As with most Wing Chun I teach that each strike should carry venom but that strikes should be thrown in clusters creating a continuous barrage that overwhelms the opponent. I agree with mjm's post re aggression.
We are all entitled to our own opinions but I do find it mildly amusing that your argument against striking is that your limb may get cut but yet you advocate grabbing for / striking the weapon arm. If we're talking about risks then I'd rather put my money on hitting (with a barrage of shots) the slower moving target that causes maximum damage and has a chance of stopping things than trying to strike / grab a fast moving limb that even if successful still hasn't stopped the fight and requires another action to do so.

You are correct sir, and you are entitled to your opinion as well. I'm not sure of the extent of your knife work, however, often when discussions of this nature come up, I too, am mildly amused, when I read posts from people whos knife experience is limited. However, let me clarify. Earlier in this thread, I posted some video clips. That is the method that I currently use now, with the majority of my knife work. You'll notice how control is easily gained, the badguy is taken off balance, and strikes can be applied.

Note, that I did not say that I'd grab for the arm. That was something that you said or assumed I said, from my post. Note, that I also said that its a given that no matter what we do, expect to be cut. My point was simply this: I'm using the methods shown in those clips I linked. The only thing that I didn't like about your method, was the fact that while strikes are certainly a valid tool, I don't agree with your take on not controlling the weapon, and instead, your relying on the hope that you can overwhelm the guy. Of course, keep in mind that its also very possible that in your attempt to overwhelm them with strikes, which is a common WC thing, given that this is often done vs. emtpy hand attacks, that the guy could still be swinging the blade.

But hey, if your method works, great. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[oftheherd1]

One of the things I do too is to let my students grab the my knife hand, then simply drop the knife into my other hand and start slashing away. It really throws off their game.

First, I agree with Chris Parker's statement posted above. Many of the Hapkido techniques I learned take advantage of the reflexsive response of an attacker.

Second, I assume you are talking about while your students are learning, sort of by the numbers? As Chris Parker mentioned, if you want to stress being aware of many possibilities and being prepared to change tactics if needed, I can see that might have some advangage. I would hope you are pointing out how unlikely your tactic is when the technique is performed correctly. Otherwise, you may be building into your training, doubts about the effectiveness of what you are training. That would not serve your students well.

But once past the 'numbers' stage of learning, the technique should be rapid and smooth enough to prevent that tactic, as well as the attacker having to be very good to react to any sudden, unexpected, and surpise defense.

 

[szorn]

So I'm a big fan of problem solving, espicially in martial arts. One attack which has perplexed me the most is the 'real knife attack'. It's fast, effective, and difficult to defend against. So how would you do it?

Keep in mind here, you can't run. If you don't render the attacker ineffective he will kill all of your immediate family, it's that kind of situation.

I'm really sick of watching seminar after seminar where the main instuctor curses up a storm, explains how you are hopeless in a knife defence situation, shows what a real knife attack is, and then doesn't show how to defend against it. I wouldn't want to pay 100 bucks for someone to tell me how hopeless I am against a knife, I want answers and solutions!

The other side side of the 'knife seminar' is guys who have unbeliveably dynamic tehcniques where you take them to the ground and get them in some crazy armbar/triangle choke and it's just way too fancy to really remember and perform on the street.

And there's a third class of knife seminar guys that just do flow drills the whole time, but that's not what this thread is for anyway.

I've come up with a few options but I'm currious on what you guys would do against this attack if you really had to and how do you train for it?

I didn't have time to read through every single reply on this so most of this may have already been covered by others...

There are essentially two primary options- create distance or close the distance. When possible and applicable create distance and put something between you and them. The larger the item (such as a car) the better. If you carry a firearm or knife for self-defense, create distance and resort to your weapon. If all that you have a is a jacket, then use it in a fashion that works better than demonstrated in that video. Using it like a flail to the head can work. I teach a flexible weapons course that provides options of blocking and deflecting with soft items like a jacket. Also, if time allows wrapping it around the arm can reduce damage while using the arm to block/jam and secure the weapon-bearing limb. If you can't create distance then aggressively engage the attacker and attempt to secure the weapon-bearing limb while viciously striking vital targets. A knife attack is a lethal force situation and warrants a lethal force response. Targeting the throat / neck is a good option. Avoid trying to do commonly taught knife dis-arms. These generally don't work well under the attacks as demonstrated in that video.

Regardless of what options we train, all we can do is a make a bad situation a little less bad.


Steve

 

[Aiki Lee]

Looking back at the video, I can see how being grabbed before being stabbed can immediate cause the defender to feel like he's been "caught" and thus cause him to freeze. Having multiple limbs grab onto you can overwhelm the brain and create indecision as to what she be dealt with first. The reason the defender got "killed" in the video was because he was reacting defensively instead of acting offensively. He moved backward, as was his instinct and tried to stop the attacker from coming closer by putting his arms out as a barrier (also instinct).

Personally, when I am practicing these kind of realistic knife scenarios where you are attacked and not totally aware and I am randomly grabbed and stabbed at I begin throwing counter strikes towards the incoming biscep area of the striking/stabbing/slashing arm. Why the biscep? Cuz it doesn't move much from its resting place to it's full extension, so I'm less likely to miss than if I were aiming at the wrist. Hitting this area prevents the attack from reaching you and may result in the attacker dropping the knife. Whether or not he drops it, it does allow for enough time to move to a superior position and apply a technique.

After all, there are a bunch of techniques that are feasible for knife defense, but as with any realistic training it doesn't so much matter what technique you pick but how you plan to set up the situation so you can apply it.

 

[Cyriacus]

I didn't have time to read through every single reply on this so most of this may have already been covered by others...

There are essentially two primary options- create distance or close the distance. When possible and applicable create distance and put something between you and them. The larger the item (such as a car) the better. If you carry a firearm or knife for self-defense, create distance and resort to your weapon. If all that you have a is a jacket, then use it in a fashion that works better than demonstrated in that video. Using it like a flail to the head can work. I teach a flexible weapons course that provides options of blocking and deflecting with soft items like a jacket. Also, if time allows wrapping it around the arm can reduce damage while using the arm to block/jam and secure the weapon-bearing limb. If you can't create distance then aggressively engage the attacker and attempt to secure the weapon-bearing limb while viciously striking vital targets. A knife attack is a lethal force situation and warrants a lethal force response. Targeting the throat / neck is a good option. Avoid trying to do commonly taught knife dis-arms. These generally don't work well under the attacks as demonstrated in that video.

Regardless of what options we train, all we can do is a make a bad situation a little less bad.


Steve

In the video, He didnt have time to use the jacket for squat.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Throw the jacket at the attackers face as a distraction and side step to the attackers left (the non-knife wielding side) and use a low turning kick to to trip him over and follow with a foot stomp to his head, leg or ribs when he is on the ground - end of story.

 

[Cyriacus]

Throw the jacket at the attackers face as a distraction and side step to the attackers left (the non-knife wielding side) and use a low turning kick to to trip him over and follow with a foot stomp to his head, leg or ribs when he is on the ground - end of story.

I really hope youre joking.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Why would you say that?

 

[RTKDCMB]

I mean my left.

 

[Cyriacus]

Why would you say that?

I mean my left.

Well, to begin with, grab a jacket and throw it at face height. See how long it takes and how pathetically it flutters through the air.
Now throw the jacket and sidestep before picking one leg up off the ground.
Now try and do all of that in less than a second with the kick.
Now assume that you know that the attacker has the knife, which hand its in, and that you even know that theyre going to stab you with it.
Now keep in mind that they are a human being with a brain between their ears.

Now, get a knife and a partner, then rush at them (you being the attacker) with the intent to physically collide your body into theirs. Have them sidestep, and feel all tingly with revelation as you, being a human with a brain, make a miniscule adjustment you probably wont even notice, rendering their sidestep a total waste of time under the circumstances, and if anything putting them on the beginnings of retreat/falling over whilst being stabbed. While youre at it, let them try and throw a jacket into your face so that you can totally ignore it and stab them anyway, whilst they waste time. Not only do jackets not hurt, but you dont need to be able to see someone to stab them, and thats assuming it didnt do what throwing jackets has done the times weve tried it, where it just sticks to the attackers shoulder like a sauna towel. Furthermore, youre letting them stab you whilst you stand on one leg after a sidestep. Even if you get the kick off, they are not going to trip over, and even if they did theyd fall into you. You know, with their stabby knife. Why? Well, let someone kick you like so, and observe as you totally ignore it and keep moving forward. Even if it broke your shin, who cares. Youre stabbing them and theyre standing on one leg with their body travelling away from your sheer forward momentum.

To help with the drill, bend your knees slightly, push off your back foot and gently pull with your front, then start with a shorter running pace before you break out into a full bolt charge. It makes it easier and faster to run from a standing start that way. Just something you pick up playing football, incase you dont. Make sure you dont slow down prior to colliding with your partner, since if you had a knife youd want to stick it through them. Ignore everything they do, and just maintain a straight line towards them. And for the sake of sticking close to the video, grab them by their shoulder or lapel whilst you stab them. Makes it easier to stab like a sewing machine.

 

[Drasken]

The jacket could be useful to distract the attacker, but it would give you a fraction of a second. If untrained to think that quickly, it wouldn't help much. The point though is not to stand your ground and use force against force, but to get off line of attack. Either way the fact is in an attack like this you should expect in all probability to be cut. You should focus on minimizing damage taken while controlling the knife and disabling the attacker.
But this is assuming the worst case scenario. Ideally you want a stool, long sturdy stick like a cane or the like to keep distance and even the playing field. This particular situation is quite a sucky situation to be in.

 

[Cyriacus]

The jacket could be useful to distract the attacker, but it would give you a fraction of a second. If untrained to think that quickly, it wouldn't help much. The point though is not to stand your ground and use force against force, but to get off line of attack. Either way the fact is in an attack like this you should expect in all probability to be cut. You should focus on minimizing damage taken while controlling the knife and disabling the attacker.
But this is assuming the worst case scenario. Ideally you want a stool, long sturdy stick like a cane or the like to keep distance and even the playing field. This particular situation is quite a sucky situation to be in.

The worst case scenario is that your highly trained reflexes are useless. The video in some ways gives the defender too much hope.

 

[Chris Parker]

Throw the jacket at the attackers face as a distraction and side step to the attackers left (the non-knife wielding side) and use a low turning kick to to trip him over and follow with a foot stomp to his head, leg or ribs when he is on the ground - end of story.

Yeah.... you're gutted. End of story.

I really hope youre joking.

Agreed. But not really for the same reasons....

Why would you say that?

Because it wouldn't work.

Aside from it being largely too slow, the method described is dangerously impractical and ineffective, and ignores the reality of the situation, from both the attacking and defending side. The most likely outcome is, if you're lucky, you might avoid the first slash.... but that's about it. The reaction from having the jacket thrown would be to (at best) get them to back away for a moment... which would mean your kick wouldn't be there (and, bluntly, you're putting a lot of faith in a low-percentage kick there... using it to "trip" a knife-man without any form of control over the knife is borderline suicidal). And, if they aren't really stopped, then most of the following just doesn't really work, especially not the way you're describing them.

 

[Drasken]

The worst case scenario is that your highly trained reflexes are useless. The video in some ways gives the defender too much hope.

That's also a good point. See that's another problem with a LOT of knife defense techniques out there. Yes, sometimes you get that stationary attacker... But what happens when you get a rushing stabbing maniac? There are ways to defend against this but nobody really talks about that. People are not prepared to encounter an armed assault on the street. And the defenses that WOULD work aren't 100% guaranteed to work.
On top of that, even if you CAN defend against this type of attack... well that assumes you see this coming in time.

 

[MJS]

I have to agree with Chris and Cyriacus. IMHO, throwing something like a jacket, is not going to be as effective as one thinks. Sorry, but if you're going to take the time to throw something, I'd rather use something that is going to be more effective than a jacket. Sorry, but when it comes to something like dealing with a knife, that is NOT the time to do something fancy. IMO, there's ALOT of BS knife defenses out there, that if done in ANY fashion other than static, will probably result in serious injury or death. People don't show those things, just like they don't show alot of other things. And there are various reasons. Perhaps the inst. thinks that what they teach will work...because their teacher and their teachers teacher, said so. I call BS on that too! I dont care if it works for them, I want to make sure it works for ME!

Personally, I'd rather see someone gain control of the weapon arm, when possible, and go from there. Forget all the fancy stuff. Of course, if you can get the hell out of dodge, then do so, but running only works for so long, and may not work at all in many cases.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The reaction from having the jacket thrown would be to (at best) get them to back away for a moment... which would mean your kick wouldn't be there

Exactly how does one back away in the middle of a full sprint forward?

 

[Cyriacus]

Exactly how does one back away in the middle of a full sprint forward?

Sidestep. Push back off the grounded foot. Im sure there are more ways.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Sidestep. Push back off the grounded foot. Im sure there are more ways.

None of those he could do in the first 10 seconds in that video.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well, to begin with, grab a jacket and throw it at face height. See how long it takes and how pathetically it flutters through the air.
Now throw the jacket and sidestep before picking one leg up off the ground.
Now try and do all of that in less than a second with the kick.
Now assume that you know that the attacker has the knife, which hand its in, and that you even know that theyre going to stab you with it.
Now keep in mind that they are a human being with a brain between their ears.

Now, get a knife and a partner, then rush at them (you being the attacker) with the intent to physically collide your body into theirs. Have them sidestep, and feel all tingly with revelation as you, being a human with a brain, make a miniscule adjustment you probably wont even notice, rendering their sidestep a total waste of time under the circumstances, and if anything putting them on the beginnings of retreat/falling over whilst being stabbed. While youre at it, let them try and throw a jacket into your face so that you can totally ignore it and stab them anyway, whilst they waste time. Not only do jackets not hurt, but you dont need to be able to see someone to stab them, and thats assuming it didnt do what throwing jackets has done the times weve tried it, where it just sticks to the attackers shoulder like a sauna towel. Furthermore, youre letting them stab you whilst you stand on one leg after a sidestep. Even if you get the kick off, they are not going to trip over, and even if they did theyd fall into you. You know, with their stabby knife. Why? Well, let someone kick you like so, and observe as you totally ignore it and keep moving forward. Even if it broke your shin, who cares. Youre stabbing them and theyre standing on one leg with their body travelling away from your sheer forward momentum.

To help with the drill, bend your knees slightly, push off your back foot and gently pull with your front, then start with a shorter running pace before you break out into a full bolt charge. It makes it easier and faster to run from a standing start that way. Just something you pick up playing football, incase you dont. Make sure you dont slow down prior to colliding with your partner, since if you had a knife youd want to stick it through them. Ignore everything they do, and just maintain a straight line towards them. And for the sake of sticking close to the video, grab them by their shoulder or lapel whilst you stab them. Makes it easier to stab like a sewing machine.

Take a look at the video again exactly as it is. That is quite a thick looking jacket and would throw quite well, he was obviously had just taken it off and was about to fold it up when he saw the guy with the knife. You would not have to throw it far as the attacker is moving into you, you could basically throw it straight up form its original position a few centimeters (~40cm in the video) and it would be at face height, it would not flutter very much., it was already in your hand ready to use. The guy took a step back and 2 steps forward before he got close with the knife, if you can't side step and kick before he can do that then you are very slow indeed (it was nearly 2 whole seconds). The knife was clearly visible in the guys hand well before the attack even began. With the way the attacker is traveling in the video the side step would put you at 90 degrees from his direction of travel (he would be next to you) and on the side furthest away from the knife. It would take a major adjustment for him to follow you with the knife, he would have to stop and turn and reach across himself with the knife to stab you with it and in a full sprint, like he was doing in the video, that's just not going to happen with a split seconds notice. You would not even have to do a full turning kick, just leaving your leg out would be enough to trip him over. From that position it would be impossible for him to fall into you as you would be out of their way.