Is Knife defence even worth teaching?

[Christian Soldier]

Allright, this is kind of a continutation of "How do you defend against this? (knife attack)"

I'm continueing to hear how hopeless going up against anyone with a knife is, doesn't matter if it's a hooligan with a box cutter or a kali master with a fighting knife, you are pretty much out of luck no matter who you are. You might as well just give up.

What are your thoughts? Do you teach knife defence at your school? If so, what do you teach?

I'm very willing to learn and listen, so if you have any expierence/wisdom in this matter, please share.


Thanks.


Dan

 

[MJS]

Certain people will talk about how pointless it is. IMO, those people say that because they probably don't have any solid knife skills. Now, of course, just because we train, that doesn't turn us into Supermen, nor does it mean that we won't get cut. IMO, saying we should give up just because the person has a knife, is akin to giving up because the person may be a better puncher.

As for what I teach/prefer as far as knife defense goes...well, I'm a student of the FMAs, so I'm pretty much bias...lol. I also like the stuff that we see with Karl Tanswell, and the Red Zone guys. One of my FMA teachers has worked in the Dept. Of Corrections for many years, so I enjoy working with him, and picking his brain, as to what he's seen over the years. I also like to work with smaller training blades, rather than the typical, larger size ones that we often see. IMHO, the smaller ones are much harder to get a disarm on, so it forces you to work other things, ie: controlling, strikes while controlling, and then a disarm, if possible.

I like the idea of using a no lie blade, marker or shock knife, though those can be pricey. Adding in a bit of realism, can certainly go a long way.

 

[jks9199]

Decent knife defense is absolutely worth training and practicing. The problem is there's so damn little realistic and good knife defense being taught... Way too much comes from fantasy land, based on tv and movie "knife fights."

 

[Chris Parker]

Absolutely it's worth training knife defence, in fact, I'm teaching it at the moment. For a brief overview (from a post I made on another forum):

To give you an idea of our knife defence (as I teach it), it begins with awareness drills, taking notice of whether you can see both hands of an approaching threat, watching when hands "disappear" to produce weapons (or potentially, at least), methods of maintaining distance if unsure, ways of checking if they have a weapon (verbal challenges, for want of a better term, essentially removing their sense of the element of surprise), all with the aim of not engaging in the first place. From there we deal with the appearance of a knife (or any other weapon), with a verbal recognition of the weapon (which ensures that you recognize it yourself, as well as ensuring that any witnesses see what's happening, and demonstrating to the attacker that there is no surprise anymore). Then, we deal with technical methods for handling an attack, starting with simple drills to ensure protective actions (jamming and blocking methods combined with movement "inside" the arc of the attacking weapon, moving on to controlling methods, then onto disengaging and disposal methods), then moving onto actual "techniques" against the attack. These all follow the same essential pattern, which is to commit completely to the action decided upon, whether an evasive leap out of the way, or moving in to control and counter; when moving in to ensure complete control over the knife arm immediately, taking into account the natural response of the attacker (which is to try to retrieve their weapon), before moving onto a disposal/control/counter.

As you can see, a safe escape is the dominant aim as soon as possible, but the training needs to take into account everything from seeing the threat early and escaping, to handling an attacking opponent, otherwise you're missing a large section of necessary skills. But when it comes to the disarms/techniques used, they need to be realistic, which means that you need to have a realistic understanding of knife assaults and defence. Within our traditions there are plenty of knife/short blade defences, most notably within Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, and Takagi Yoshin Ryu (if you know where to look there....). Now, those techniques are great, however if taken just as they are, they don't work against modern knife assaults. The principles and tactics found in them, though, do. But the important thing is that our modern knife defences are trained against realistic (modern) attacks, with realistic responces from the attackers. Ideally, when done properly, the students won't have an inflated sense of security against a knife.... after training knife defence with my guys for a couple of months, I asked for some feedback on the way we were approaching it. The comments I got back were that the students hadn't realized just how scary, and dangerous, knife defence is. And that comes down to going up against realistic attacks.

The biggest thing to ensure, though, is that the knife defence taught is solid... and that's where there can be some disagreement. For instance, this thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/97177-Self-defense-against-a-knife) had quite a fair bit of disagreement on what constitutes good or bad ideas in this area, as did this one (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/97607-Kenpo-Knife-Defense-by-Juan-Jos%C3%A9-negreira)... so it's really a case of being as educated as you can be in this area before blindly accepting some things...

 

[oftheherd1]

In the Hapkido I learned, we were taught knife defenses against jabs, downward strikes, inside to outside, and outside to inside. It took me a while to decide I might actually be able to do them. Some I like better than others, but eventually I got fairly comfortable with all, and even saw advantages to some I initially thought sort of dangerous or useless. Most consist of a block and simultaneous counter attack. I learned at the colored (red) belt level. It has since been moved to between 1st and 2nd dan.

The main thing as mentioned above, is to learn well, and train, train, train. You have to be good, fast, and accurate. No room for error.

EDIT: So yes, I think knife defense is worth learning, just as defense against punches, kicks, throws, guns, or any other means of attack.

 

[zDom]

In the Hapkido I learned, we were taught knife defenses against jabs, downward strikes, inside to outside, and outside to inside. It took me a while to decide I might actually be able to do them. Some I like better than others, but eventually I got fairly comfortable with all, and even saw advantages to some I initially thought sort of dangerous or useless. Most consist of a block and simultaneous counter attack. I learned at the colored (red) belt level. It has since been moved to between 1st and 2nd dan.

The main thing as mentioned above, is to learn well, and train, train, train. You have to be good, fast, and accurate. No room for error.

EDIT: So yes, I think knife defense is worth learning, just as defense against punches, kicks, throws, guns, or any other means of attack.

Sounds similar to what we train in our HKD curriculum.

Knife techniques are all about mitigating the harm, not expecting to avoid all arm (although there is nothing wrong with HOPING it works out that well).

The central idea is don't just give up and let them stab and/or cut you over and over again until they decide they are done stabbing and cutting. Get the knife in control even if it means taking a punch in the face from the attacker's free hand. Realize that it is mortal combat once a knife is introduced. If you can escape without engaging and getting stabbed during that retreat, take that opportunity.


And just because you get cut and/or stabbed doesn't mean "you lose" and that you should just ball up and wait for the attacker to finish. There is the possibility that you might not even FEEL the cuts and/or stab wounds (um.. until later) so GET CONTROL OF THE KNIFE; end the attack; call for help.

If someone has attacked with a knife, odds are at least one of them, maybe both, are going to need an ambulance.

At least that is how I feel about it.

 

[punisher73]

If nothing else, if you have the mentality of "why learn it, your screwed if they have a knife" then you are training your students to give up if they see a knife. At the very least, teach them evasion skills and improvised weapons or SOMETHING instead of just telling there is nothing that can be done.

Knife attacks are too varied to say definitively one way or another. Does the guy just want you dead and blitzes you with no care other than to kill you? That is alot different than someone pulling a knife to just try and threaten you with it.

For example, one of my instructors had a guy pull a knife on him and threaten it with him. He did two inward strikes to the wrist/forearm and broke the guy's forearm and he dropped the knife. Is that a 100% technique or even a high percentage move to try and teach people? Probably not, but it worked for him in that case. So you just never know, but the main thing was his attitude was a never give up one.

 

[oftheherd1]

Knife techniques are all about mitigating the harm, not expecting to avoid all arm (although there is nothing wrong with HOPING it works out that well).
...

Similar perhaps, but not the same. We were not taught to 'mitigate' the harm but still expect some harm. We were taught to block and counter-attack. The counter-attack would usually result in the attacker being disarmed and the knife used to cut the attacker from top to bottom. In all Hapkido, you have to be faster and more accurate than your opponent. If not, you will place yourself where your opponent couldn't hope to find you; right in his sphere of greatest power. Never a good place to be, but worse if a weapon is involved.

Mind you, I don't think any of us were foolish enough to discount the possibility of coming into contact with a knife. But the goal was not to.

 

[K-man]

Years ago when I was starting out we did so little knife defence that it would have been practically useless in the real world. Now I teach knife defence at least once a week. I don't teach a set defence against a particular attack because it is likely to produce a confused response in a real attack if the attack is slightly different to the practice attack. Rather, I teach certain principles which are true regardless of the attack and rely on instinctive response.

For the higher grades we use real knives with the edge ground down. They still look 100% real and give you the feel of the real thing.

Is it worth the effort? Well, knives are a big part of street attacks here and to ignore them in martial art training would IMO be irresponsible. As Chris said, awareness is an important part of the teaching and in reality if you are attacked there is a high probability you will be cut. If I was confronted by someone with a knife, and I could get away, I would prefer to have had regular realistic training than no training. :asian:

 

[zDom]

OK. Here we go.

Similar perhaps, but not the same. We were not taught to 'mitigate' the harm but still expect some harm. We were taught to block and counter-attack. The counter-attack would usually result in the attacker being disarmed and the knife used to cut the attacker from top to bottom.

Yes I very much doubt if they are exactly the same. I was merely commenting on your comment that "knife defenses against jabs, downward strikes, inside to outside, and outside to inside" are taught in your curriculum.

We also have defenses to downward strikes, inside to outside, outside to inside.

/end noted similarities.

Regarding "block / counterattack" it sounds like flawed technique to me. A deflected knife attack (i.e., a "blocked" attack) leaves the attacker free to initiate ANOTHER knife attack if your counterattack does not disable to the attacker and/or disarm the attacker. So if the attacker is NOT disabled or disarmed, what then? Rinse, repeat?

What are these wonderful techniques that enable you to block in such a way that "the knife is used to cut the attacker from top to bottom"? I find that sort of cut, if deep enough, to be exceptional with a blade that small — or superficial.

We do have some techniques in which we use both of our hands to redirect the point of the knife back into the attacker, but I am having problems visualizing this "top to bottom" cut. And this happens USUALLY? Not just some of the time? Outstanding.

In all Hapkido, you have to be faster and more accurate than your opponent. If not, you will place yourself where your opponent couldn't hope to find you; right in his sphere of greatest power. Never a good place to be, but worse if a weapon is involved.

Mind you, I don't think any of us were foolish enough to discount the possibility of coming into contact with a knife. But the goal was not to.

In ALL hapkido? What makes you think so?

I am relieved that I am studying Moo Sul Kwan hapkido in which we assume the attacker is larger and stronger — and yes, maybe even faster and more accurate. Our thinking is smaller, weaker folk rarely attacker us. We certainly hope they are slower and less accurate but do not rely on those factors. The older I get the more people there are that are faster than me but turns out I don't end up "in his sphere of greatest power."

I guess I'm just lucky, eh?

 

[zDom]

We were not taught to 'mitigate' the harm but still expect some harm.

This is the part I originally meant to address.

Exactly what are you reading into this comment?

By mitigate, I meant I was taught: "Expect to get cut. It is likely. But try to keep from getting cut in your vital areas. A cut on the outer arm or hand is less likely to be serious than a cut or stab to the torso."

Is this not mitigation? Sounds like you are first rebutting my comment and then paraphrasing it so I am confused.

 

[zDom]

For the higher grades we use real knives with the edge ground down. They still look 100% real and give you the feel of the real thing.

What about the pointy part?

 

[Aiki Lee]

Knife defense is an essential skill for practical self defense. If you have solid principles and practice realistic attacks like being shanked up close, then you stand a chance. Edged weapons defense is not the terrible boogey man some people make it out to be. Obviously edged weapons are dangerous and the training needs to reflect that, but it's by no means impossible.

 

[K-man]

What about the pointy part?

Ground to rounded but will still cause injury if it is a direct thrust or more particularly near the face. That is why I only let those with a reasonable amount of training, use them. Normally the others just use rubber knives, although I use the wooden Tanto occasionally. :asian:

 

[Cyriacus]

Allright, this is kind of a continutation of "How do you defend against this? (knife attack)"

I'm continueing to hear how hopeless going up against anyone with a knife is, doesn't matter if it's a hooligan with a box cutter or a kali master with a fighting knife, you are pretty much out of luck no matter who you are. You might as well just give up.

What are your thoughts? Do you teach knife defence at your school? If so, what do you teach?

I'm very willing to learn and listen, so if you have any expierence/wisdom in this matter, please share.


Thanks.


Dan

Is it worth teaching? Yes.
How is it taught? By being less about technique, even if a technique is being used along the way.

As for giving up, no, not at all. Youre not condemned to failure, Youre condemned to a disadvantage no matter what. That doesnt mean Youre going to lose, it means Youre at a disadvantage, and that Your life could be at risk. You might very well beat the guy down anyway - Thats a base fact for any situation, knife or no knife.

But it Youve spent, say, 5 years learning striking or grappling, and Theyve spent 5 years learning to use a knife, its simple. Dont let Them do what Theyre good at. Do what Youre good at, hope for the best, and dont get overconfident.

 

[arnisador]

I teach it. I've used it. I emphasize that the odds are well in favor of a smart knifer--but that many aren't smart, which is of some help, and that many people have survived such attacks (e.g., George Harrison). Be very wary but don't give up. You may get cut but you might also survive.

 

[Big Don]

At our last seminar with Sifu Planas, we did 3 hours of knife. We train with sticks (escrima) and knives. IMHO, I'm much more likely to be able to grab something approximating an escrima stick than a staff, or any of the many other martial arts weapons, and knives? I always have a knife, it isn't a weapon, it is a tool, one I use many times a day. Why wouldn't I want to know new and better ways to use what I'm carrying anyway?
We have a knife class once every 45 days or so with a senior student of Mr Planas, who brings us such fun little training aids as Shock Knives. (OW )

 

[Christian Soldier]

Wow, you guys really cleared things up. Thank you.

I've had a fair amount of professional (in a MA school not just watching YT) Knife vs Knife, and Hand vs Hand, but not much hand vs knife. In Kenpo we have a few techniqes for knife defence but I wouldn't stake my life on them.
I got a few ideas from Chris but do you guys have any preffered knife drills or techniques you teach in class?

 

[MJS]

This!!! I agree with this. In any art, we see techs for just about every attack out there...grabs, punches, kicks, you name it. However, as you said, I feel that while the teaching of set techs is fine, IMO, its more important to fall back on the principles, concepts, etc, to formulate a response.

 

[zDom]

... I feel that while the teaching of set techs is fine, IMO, its more important to fall back on the principles, concepts, etc, to formulate a response.

Absolutely.

It so happens we initiate students in those principles, concepts, etc. USING set techniques; but those are never intended to be a catalogue of exclusively acceptable responses.


By the way: do those shock knives shock through a judo gi?