How appliable is aikido for self-defense?

[moonhill99]

Come on, man. You're completely around the bend. Are you truly so close to this?

In the billions of videos posted, there are examples of just about everything. Is every wedding posted? No, but weddings are posted, so we can know they occur.

Said another way, your position is essentially that aikido for self defense is as rare as the yeti or Sasquatch. That seems a bit extreme to me.

Sorry want videos his he after? Is he looking for aikido used for self defense on the street? Even if there was many videos he probably say they got lucky.

And those arguments will not go away and he will ask for more videos.

 

[Flying Crane]

Whoa. Okay. My opinion is that the person with an axe to grind here is you. You're not making any sense whatsoever.

Are you saying that aikido is useless for self defense? Because that is the question in the OP.

Are you saying that aikido doesn't work well in MMA type competitions?

Are you saying something else?

What is your position, exactly?

 

[drop bear]

Are you saying that aikido is useless for self defense? Because that is the question in the OP.

Are you saying that aikido doesn't work well in MMA type competitions?

Are you saying something else?

What is your position, exactly?

He is saying your argument isnt sound. Regardless as to whether Akido is or isn't good for self defence.

 

[Flying Crane]

He is saying your argument isnt sound. Regardless as to whether Akido is or isn't good for self defence.

Thanks for the input, I'd like to hear it from Steve

I'm actually trying to figure out if we are having two different discussions, without realizing it.

 

[Steve]

Are you saying that aikido is useless for self defense? Because that is the question in the OP.

Are you saying that aikido doesn't work well in MMA type competitions?

Are you saying something else?

What is your position, exactly?

With regards to self defense, can aikido be used? I don't know, because I've not seen much evidence of that. I believe it can be theoretically, but that's based upon the word of people who I believe are credible, like GPSeymour, who have a solid foundation in training theory and also trained in arts like Judo. I know he is well versed with the pros and cons of pressure testing technique, sparring and competition. Even here, though, it gets dicey when he has moved into discussions about "pure aiki" and the distinction between a submission and a destruction. So, all of that to say, I know you're looking for a black and white answer, but I can only offer you something in the middle.

With regards to YouTube, I really tried to articulate my thoughts and also show you where you and I disagree. My belief is that you have a problem with a couple of posters, and that it clouds your better judgment, to the point where you say things you don't mean (I get it. I have a similar problem with a poster, myself). When I say that YouTube is a way of providing evidence, and you ask me if I have posted videos every time I have used the bathroom, something has gone horribly awry.

What is your position, FC? I have a lot of opinions about the many different trains of thought that have come up in this thread. So, given your three questions above, I'd say yes, I'm saying something else.

 

[Flying Crane]

My position is actually pretty simple.

1. Aikido can definitely be useful in self defense.

2. However, it may not be the best approach if someone is interested in combat sports, such as MMA.

3. The fact that YouTube video is apparently not to be found showing aikido being used in real self defense, in no way negates point number 1. As I keep saying, most of what happens in the world is not filmed and posted on YouTube.

4. If video is to be found showing aikido being defeated in a combat sports type setting, that is not surprising, and also in no way negates point number 1.

5. If some people aren't impressed with the training methods they have seen in aikido, well they should not train aikido. There's not much more to say about that.

6. No matter how much video one watches, they have not seen all, or even a small percentage of the training that goes on in the world. Passing judgement on the whole, based on what is seen in YouTube, is a mistake.

7. That being said, people are welcome to like or dislike anything they want, for whatever good or bad reason they come up with. If you don't like it, don't train it. Personally, I have zero interest in BJJ and other grappling methods. But I don't believe I have ever come on here and run a campaign trying to smear grappling methods as somehow unworthy. It does get tiresome when some people habitually so it with other systems.

 

[drop bear]

My position is actually pretty simple.

1. Aikido can definitely be useful in self defense.

2. However, it may not be the best approach if someone is interested in combat sports, such as MMA.

3. The fact that YouTube video is apparently not to be found showing aikido being used in real self defense, in no way negates point number 1. As I keep saying, most of what happens in the world is not filmed and posted on YouTube.

4. If video is to be found showing aikido being defeated in a combat sports type setting, that is not surprising, and also in no way negates point number 1.

5. If some people aren't impressed with the training methods they have seen in aikido, well they should not train aikido. There's not much more to say about that.

6. No matter how much video one watches, they have not seen all, or even a small percentage of the training that goes on in the world. Passing judgement on the whole, based on what is seen in YouTube, is a mistake.

7. That being said, people are welcome to like or dislike anything they want, for whatever good or bad reason they come up with. If you don't like it, don't train it. Personally, I have zero interest in BJJ and other grappling methods. But I don't believe I have ever come on here and run a campaign trying to smear grappling methods as somehow unworthy. It does get tiresome when some people habitually so it with other systems.

I am with you. People have unjustly mocked my laser eyes defence method as well.

 

[Steve]

I am with you. People have unjustly mocked my laser eyes defence method as well.

I have a self defense method called chimpanzyu that involves soiling oneself and flinging poo as its primary skillsets. But FC has correctly stated that there is not a single video of me pooping on YouTube. I assure you all that it works very well, even though there is zero video footage available to corroborate my statement.

 

[Flying Crane]

For the record, I will repeat, as I have said this numerous times in the forums here, that poor instruction and bad examples are easy to find. It is easy to find on YouTube, and it is easy to find in the real world. In my opinion, the majority of schools are actually mediocre at best, and mostly downright poor, at least from what I've seen. When I first moved to San Francisco in 1994, I made a point of visiting and watching some classes in many of the schools here, and there are a lot of them, teaching many different systems. I did a similar thing in the cities where I was in college, before that. So that is my sample size, and that is my opinion, based on what I have seen.

So, yeah, poor instruction abounds. No disagreement there.

But I do distinguish a bad example, or even many bad examples, from the system as a whole. I know that there are some really skilled and talented people out there, in all systems.

But the quality of instruction has to be high, and I don't see that in many of the schools I've visited. Unfortunately that seems to be the state of martial arts: a lot of junk, with an occasional diamond.

I visited at least three different aikido schools here, as far as I can remember. One seemed quite poor to me, in spite of a head instructor ranked at 6th Dan. Everything seemed very cooperative, with people falling over before a technique was really applied. The other two schools were very impressive to me. The contact was solid, and bodies were flying for real. My wife visited a school in Berkeley, because a friend of hers from law school trained there. What she saw was rough and potentially brutal. At that time her prior background was in Tae kwon do, hapkido, and capoeira, so she has an experienced eye as well.

Regarding the method that I train, Tibetan White Crane, I have seen many YouTube videos. In my opinion, not a single one of those videos showed quality white crane. None. Some of them were downright embarrassing to watch. But I have absolute confidence in the method and in the instruction that I have received, regardless of my own personal shortcomings and inabilities. Nothing about what is found on YouTube in any way discourages me in my training, because I know that there is a lot of junk out there, but I got lucky and found an excellent sifu who was willing to accept me as his student.

So, for what it's worth.

 

[Hanzou]

My position is actually pretty simple.

1. Aikido can definitely be useful in self defense.

2. However, it may not be the best approach if someone is interested in combat sports, such as MMA.

3. The fact that YouTube video is apparently not to be found showing aikido being used in real self defense, in no way negates point number 1. As I keep saying, most of what happens in the world is not filmed and posted on YouTube.

4. If video is to be found showing aikido being defeated in a combat sports type setting, that is not surprising, and also in no way negates point number 1.

5. If some people aren't impressed with the training methods they have seen in aikido, well they should not train aikido. There's not much more to say about that.

6. No matter how much video one watches, they have not seen all, or even a small percentage of the training that goes on in the world. Passing judgement on the whole, based on what is seen in YouTube, is a mistake.

7. That being said, people are welcome to like or dislike anything they want, for whatever good or bad reason they come up with. If you don't like it, don't train it. Personally, I have zero interest in BJJ and other grappling methods. But I don't believe I have ever come on here and run a campaign trying to smear grappling methods as somehow unworthy. It does get tiresome when some people habitually so it with other systems.

1. And yet we have experts in the field saying the exact opposite.

2. Why not?

3. Except that wasn't the only point being made. There are people with first-hand experience who agree that Aikido is not a good choice for self defense.

4. Why is it not surprising?

5. Agreed, but that doesn't mean that they aren't permitted to criticize those training methods.

6.Who did that?

7. I think the problem is that people like yourself view a little healthy skepticism as "smearing".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In another forum, someone asked people's opinion about this clip.

IMO, the issue of this clip are the following.

- When you use your hand to grab on your opponent's wrist, your opponent twists his arm, puts pressure on your wrist, and you are still "stupid enough" to hold on your grip, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself.
- If people are "stupid enough" to assume that people on the street will respond like this, there is big problem in this "training method".

Common sense tells us when you grab on your opponent's wrist and your opponent twist his arm and try to break your grip, you should

- release your wrist grip and move your hand onto his elbow joint, or
- move your hand and meet his face.

My biggest concern is why such kind of "normal" respond are not in the regular training?

Is there any other MA system on earth that students only train throw and never train counter-throw (the counter-throw can be as simple as to release your own wrist grip)?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Can someone find any Aikido "counter-throw" clip online (something like the following clip)?

Amazing counter throw

 

[Flying Crane]

1. And yet we have experts in the field saying the exact opposite.

2. Why not?

3. Except that wasn't the only point being made. There are people with first-hand experience who agree that Aikido is not a good choice for self defense.

4. Why is it not surprising?

5. Agreed, but that doesn't mean that they aren't permitted to criticize those training methods.

6.Who did that?

7. I think the problem is that people like yourself view a little healthy skepticism as "smearing".

You are a tedious individual. Have a good life.

 

[pgsmith]

7. I think the problem is that people like yourself view a little healthy skepticism as "smearing".

So, you are posting (alot) in the aikido forum saying that aikido is garbage in response to most threads, but that qualifies in your mind as "a little healthy skepticism?"

Some people just aren't happy when things aren't done the way they want them to be done.

 

[Steve]

In another forum, someone asked people's opinion about this clip.

IMO, the issue of this clip are the following.

- When you use your hand to grab on your opponent's wrist, your opponent twists his arm, puts pressure on your wrist, and you are still "stupid enough" to hold on your grip, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself.
- If people are "stupid enough" to assume that people on the street will respond like this, there is big problem in this "training method".

Common sense tells us when you grab on your opponent's wrist and your opponent twist his arm and try to break your grip, you should

- release your wrist grip and move your hand onto his elbow joint, or
- move your hand and meet his face.

My biggest concern is why such kind of "normal" respond are not in the regular training?

Is there any other MA system on earth that students only train throw and never train counter-throw (the counter-throw can be as simple as to release your own wrist grip)?

I'm also very interested in thoughts from the aikido guys. Is this video good aikido?

 

[Hanzou]

So, you are posting (alot) in the aikido forum saying that aikido is garbage in response to most threads, but that qualifies in your mind as "a little healthy skepticism?"

Some people just aren't happy when things aren't done the way they want them to be done.

Where did I say that Aikido was "garbage"?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you learn a MA system,

1st - you learn how to apply a technique (such as a side kick),
2nd - you learn how to counter that technique (such as to block a side kick),
3rd - you learn how to counter a counter (such as when your opponent blocks your side kick, you borrow his blocking force, spin your body and give him a back spinning fist).
4th - ...

Should all MA systems train this way?

If you only train step 1 and never train step 2 and step 3, your MA training is not complete.

 

[Spinedoc]

1. And yet we have experts in the field saying the exact opposite.

2. Why not?

3. Except that wasn't the only point being made. There are people with first-hand experience who agree that Aikido is not a good choice for self defense.

4. Why is it not surprising?

5. Agreed, but that doesn't mean that they aren't permitted to criticize those training methods.

6.Who did that?

7. I think the problem is that people like yourself view a little healthy skepticism as "smearing".

I think you are misinterpreting what I said. What I said was "In my dojo we actually tell new people that Aikido isn't really a self defense course that you can learn quickly and be good at."

That is not the same as saying that Aikido is not a good choice for self defense. Aikido can be very effective, but takes a longer time to really be able to use that way. When I have new students, I tell them that if they want a fast self defense course, which many Americans seem to want, that they are better off buying a handgun.

 

[Spinedoc]

Can someone find any Aikido "counter-throw" clip online (something like the following clip)?

Amazing counter throw

Yes, Kaeshi Waza or reversals/counters are a cornerstone along with Henka Waza (counter to the counter) at higher level Aikido practice. We don't generally practice these below 2nd kyu, but on most Yudansha tests, especially at Nidan and above, you will be expected to know a fair amount of these....

Here are some basic examples from Nemoto Sensei. Keep in mind, he is teaching these, so they are being done at a lower speed without full resistance.

 

[Spinedoc]

When you learn a MA system,

1st - you learn how to apply a technique (such as a side kick),
2nd - you learn how to counter that technique (such as to block a side kick),
3rd - you learn how to counter a counter (such as when your opponent blocks your side kick, you borrow his blocking force, spin your body and give him a back spinning fist).
4th - ...

Should all MA systems train this way?

If you only train step 1 and never train step 2 and step 3, your MA training is not complete.

Again, we do steps 2 and 3, but not for several years...