Hot head rolling partner

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Headhunter, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    So today I went to a jiu jitsu club in my area for an open mat. I've been there a few times it's a good place but today I ended up rolling with this 17 year old. He's a tall guy about 6'3 maybe and he's a white belt and Idk but he seems nice enough but in other classes he's made some arrogant big headed comments during classes but anyway o rolled with him and I wasn't going hard I never do when I roll but I was handling him pretty well. I didn't submit him but mostly I was controlling position and one time he tried to reverse me and I pinned that's when I first saw an issue. The look on his face he looked furious like he wanted to hurt me. But whatever I just carried doing what I was doing. Then at one point I went for a triangle and he literally slamming my legs sideways into the mat hard. It wasn't hurting but that aggression was surprising and a few times his elbows and fists were hitting my face. Now once or twice you know that happens in jiu jitsu I get it but this seemed like it was on purpose. Also I'd submitted twice with a push choke from his guard where I stood in the guard and pushed his collar onto the throat and he tapped. Now at that point he was raging no doubt and next time I got Him into guard he literally shook off his gi to so he was in a rash guard. I kind of stopped and said you want to put that back on? And he said no and went for me again. I just carried on I didn't care. But then at the end when the timer bell went he had a sort of hold on my neck it wasn't hurting or choking me but he was cranking it and when the bell went he continued squeezing I told him time was up he kept going. I said it again he kept going. Next time I had to yell and I was ready to stick my finger in his eye to get him off me. I was not happy at all. Because while he didn't have me at that point he could've had my arm or a real choke and if I'd relaxed or stopped and he'd yanked he could've done me serious damage. He did let go and said he didn't hear the timer (BS)

    I wasn't happy but I didn't say anything because in my eyes there's no need to let bad feelings carry on. But after I spoke to th coach about it and he said yeah the kid struggles with emotions...now I don't know what that means and frankly I don't care if he can't handle his e,options then he shouldn't be on the mat rolling because I can handle myself but if he was against an inexperienced or smaller or younger person and he lost it he could've seriously hurt someone.

    Just wondering people's opinions.
     
  2. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    On the one hand, it takes time to build the proper discipline and character. We don't think about it much as experienced martial artists, because we've already been through that growth. This is one snapshot of the kid's struggles, and we don't know based on this whether he has good days or bad days, or if he's improving.

    On the other hand, with all of the attitude you can learn in martial arts (confidence, respect, discipline, etc), there is a minimum prerequisite that you must have. This mostly applies in our 4-6 year old class:
    • Martial arts teaches confidence. But a kid who is so shy he just stands there and doesn't even try any of the techniques needs more confidence before starting
    • Martial arts teaches listening skills (especially at that age). But a kid who can't even respond when his name is called and just runs freely around the mat, needs to grow up a little bit before starting.
    • Martial arts teaches discipline. But a kid who completely lacks self control, may need a 6-month "time-out" period before starting
    In the case of this teenager, if it's to the point where he's dangerous, he may need to take some anger management classes before starting. You don't want to endanger the other people on the mat, and you don't want to teach someone with anger issues how to fight better! However, if he is not too dangerous and the coach can control him, and he is working towards improving his anger issues, then it's a risk, but for his sake it can be a good thing.
     
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  3. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    if he does it again, hurt him, I had much the same issue with a young guy, mid 20s who bought he was a good boxer and couldn't cope with an old guy besting him, he kept turning the heat up and getting more and more annoyed and threatning to knock me out, I spoke to the instructor over calming him down, with out any notable improvement, so I smashed him in to a wall next time he did it, now he won't spar with me, problem solved
     
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  4. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master of Arts

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    its been said that there are no bad students, only bad teachers.

    i disagree with that sentiment, as it excuses a student of his responsibility.

    my students have a code of ethical behavior when sparring. violation is one formal warning then expulsion.
     
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  5. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Yeah that's bull...that's some dumb line from karate kid and used so people can pass the blame for being idiots
     
  6. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    He is putting people at risk though because he kept fighting after the time ended and I'd stopped, he was throwing punches and elbows and I forgot to post this in at one he stood and used the technique to lift the person up and slammed me to the mat. That may be legal in Mma but in bjj it's illegal. So yeah he's putting people in danger. I don't care what his needs are if he's deliberately trying to hurt someone he should be out no questions asked in my eyes
     
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  7. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Oh I was ready to if he hadn't released when I had I was either to shove my fingers in his eye or punch the nearest target. I don't care I'm not taking that crap off some kid who can't handle getting his butt handed to him. He didn't hurt me that time because his technique was crap. But if he'd had me in a arm bar and bell went and I relaxed thinking it was over and he yanked it hard he could've broken my arm. Kid thinks he's something special the way he talks. I showed him he wasn't. I was watching some other rolls with people who were more regular at the club and they seemed to be going easy on him and letting him take position and submissions so he probably thought he was better and then he fought me who wasn't letting him win and his ego couldn't take it. And I'm nothing special at bjj either. I'd say I'm average at best for a white belt. I'm not the best white belt either so it's not an ego thing on my part. I know I'm not that great but I don't care. I get my butt kicked all the time and I don't act like an idiot over it
     
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  8. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    He's a white belt. Is he aware these are illegal?
     
  9. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Yes he's been doing it for 3 years and has competed he knows the rules
     
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  10. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

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    @Headhunter, one thing I've done while on the mat in training and I'm sparring or rolling with someone and they start seeming frustrated, or amping up, or whatever, is I start talking... going into lecture mode. The reason is two-fold and it works well if you're paired with a much junior student. First, I begin just a running ommentary on what I'm doing, what they're doing, telling the guy how I'm reacting to what he's doing, whatever. First thing it does is to distract them from whatever looping is going on in their head by giving them something else to think about. The other thing is... it delivers a message that you aren't having to concentrate on what you're doing, you have a lot left in the tank and can spare the time and energy to go into teacher mode.

    Personally, I think it's better than the way of saying, "I'm taking it easy, but if you really want to roll boy, just let me know." That way works out badly almost 100% of the time. You kept your cool very well when time rang.
     
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  11. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    That's not my way of doing things, when I'm rolling I'm not there to talk I'm there to train. Simply I'm not great at jiu jitsu so I'm focusing on what I'm doing and thinking through things myself. I'm not at the stage where I can take it that way. But I did do a thing where I saw so much aggression and anger on his face. I made sure to keep myself looking relaxed and almost bored by looking up at the clock and looking around the class. Showing him I wasn't bothered or annoyed by his stupid antics. Would it wind him up more? maybe but by that point where he'd slammed me twice on the mat took off his gi to avoid a choke and elbowed and punched me it was either that or smack him. I chose the former
     
  12. Rat

    Rat Black Belt

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    Wouldn't a dulled rule set work better for this? like no submissions just pin wrestling? Takes at least lethal moves out of the legal rule set. (and its kind of hard to sneak choke someone out or arm bar them when you are meant to just be pinning)

    Just had that thought in my mind and wanted opinions on it.
     
  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Things like half Nelsons still tear your head off in pin wrestling if they wanted to hurt you.

    Otherwise framing/cross face can be done pretty vindictively
     
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  14. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Because it's jiu jitsu not wrestling
     
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  15. paitingman

    paitingman Purple Belt

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    I've had experiences with people's emotions coming out physically when simply training with partners.

    Situations like yours really piss me off when they happen, but I had my own little moments early on in my training.

    I was lucky to have great teachers and my father always with me during training and giving me some real wisdom in my best interest. They were willing to talk to me about my emotions and shortcomings with understanding, and they could really level with me and talk about my feelings and crap I had going on without it being awkward or difficult.

    That boy is only 17. For students that age, they may not have had that right voice or ear in their life yet like I was blessed to have.

    The best thing I've found for dealing with these training partners is to be positive with them about the whole scenario and try and be encouraging and set a good example and be there for them on some small level. It doesn't have to escalate and it doesn't have to be weird.
    If you want teens to have their behavior under control, talking to them with actual care for their growth and ability to deal with their own life helps a lot; it really does.
     
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  16. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Cover their nose and mouth with your hand.
     
  17. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Had another roll with this clown today. I knew he was going to go hard. But I wasn't going to up my power because that's how things get stupid but basically I ended up in mount fairly easy and he was doing this weird thing where he was swinging his legs from one side to another must've been trying to throw me off I didn't work at and he gave up his back a few times doing it. I was just happy to control him there and frustrate him and let him wear himself out. Eventually he stuck up his arm so I went for the arm bar which I had I could see him grimacing in pain and I heard his arm clicking and making noises but he wasn't tapping so I just let it go. I'm not gonna break some dumb kids arm for my own ego so I let go and I ended up in guard and the look on his face...he looked furious and at that point I forgot about simply rolling and I was in self defence mode ready to defend myself if he threw a punch and as soon as the round ended up I jumped up and moved back just in case he had any not so smart ideas which I think he was because he got up and walked towards me but luckily the instructor called in everyone to line up to end the class so I just walked away before anything could happen. Again I spoke to the instructor about him because me? I can handle myself if that idiot wants to take a swing at me I can handle him and put him down if I really have to but if he's training with other people who aren't so experienced and he gets like that then he's dangerous so I said exactly what I said here and he said he'll have a word with him and give him a last chance
     
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    A quick follow-up on this. Teens (especially males) aren't generally good at managing their emotions. This is partially because their executive center (the part of the prefrontal cortex that helps override and control emotional responses) is still forming. They literally don't have as much capacity for emotional control. If you want them to step it down a bit, you can't keep letting them run the same loop they're running in their head. You have to alter the input for them, because some of them can't do that yet for themselves.
     
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  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, at this point if I was the instructor, the kid would only be allowed to roll with more senior folks, who can protect themselves AND him. Until he shows some restraint, I wouldn't trust him with a white belt, and only with select blue belts.
     
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  20. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Im curious if the kid does this with other people or just @Headhunter . If its just him, for whatever reason (not saying headhunter is doing anything, could be something as stupid as headhunter looks like his high school bully), its solved by not having the two roll together. If he's doing it with everyone, yeah seriously limit who he rolls with
     
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