Hayes

Discussion in 'SKH/Quest/Toshindo/Shadows of Iga' started by Josh Oakley, Nov 19, 2008.

  1. shiro

    shiro Yellow Belt

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    Ok you two do not know i get it so have a great day. Anyone else.
     
  2. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

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  3. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    This question come up. The answer is, no.

    There are -2- people who have that answer. 1 is Hayes, the other Hatsumi. 1 will not answer, the other will give a very Japanese non-answer, which is your answer.

    It really is a dead horse. Hayes will be at several big martial arts events on the East Coast and is last I knew it still actively teaching. You can try to contact him directly. He's on Facebook, on my friends list in fact. So he's easy to get in touch with.

    But to me, it's not important enough an issue to bother him about.
     
  4. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    See post #7 on this thread. That is a statement from George Ohashi at the time regarding Hayes and his standing in the Bujinkan (ie he is no longer a recognized part of it, training in it, or teaching it). Hayes cannot issue rank in the Bujinkan, as he is not part of it. It really is that simple. Saying he can is like saying that I used to work for Coca Cola, and now work for Pepsi, and, as they're basically the same drink, I can keep saying I work for Coke, and use their name on my business cards... it's just not correct or true.

    But really, what does it matter what the issue between them was about? Hayes is not part of the Bujinkan, and that's really the only part that can have any effect on anyone training in one organization or the other (if they wanted to cross-train, or swap between them).

    George Ohashi stepped down from being the "spokesperson" for the Bujinkan Hombu a year and a half ago (or more.... time flies, these days), so I wouldn't necessarily be using his name as an official statement. Next, of course Toshindo students are welcome... but that doesn't mean that the Toshindo student's training is really the same (to be frank, the Bujinkan does have a habit of letting members of other, particularly split-off organizations come and train, then try to buy them back to the Bujinkan with rank, promise of schools to run, promise of a connection to Hatsumi or a Shihan, and more...), nor is it saying that the Bujinkan members are allowed to train with Hayes in Toshindo. And really, teaching the "classical stuff" is not what is required to give someone "Bujinkan ranking".... after all, Bujinkan ranking isn't in the "classical material", it's in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is a modern art created out of the various systems Hatsumi holds and has been taught. It started to be created in the 70's, developed in the 80's, and came to a maturity (signified by the new name) in the mid-90's. It's a new, modern art. Teaching the "classical material" has nothing to do with Bujinkan ranking. The organization the instructor and student is in does.

    Mate, to be blunt, you're the one spreading false stories here. In the end, it doesn't matter. Hayes is not part of the Bujinkan. End of story.
     
  5. shiro

    shiro Yellow Belt

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    Ok I am not getting pulled into this I stated the facts given by him. So you do not know the answer thank you for your time.
     
  6. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    I as well have no dog in this fight, however if you really want to know ask Hayes or Hatsumi the matter is between them. Truthfully I find it distasteful to pry into a private affair but if you really need to know and you don't want second hand information that may be untruth, biased, or what not then ask the two people involved.
     
  7. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    What facts stated by who? Ohashi? You don't seem to have stated any facts, just his take on things (as interpreted by yourself), without taking into account the Japanese way of saying things (which rarely overtly says "no", but implies it in many subtle ways). So your take doesn't match reality... okay. You want the "real story", but don't accept anyone lower than Hatsumi or the Japanese Shihan? Who, as said, will respond in a Japanese way without overtly stating anything, nor actually give you the story, even if they know it? And even though Hayes would give a rather different account, leaving it up to the person hearing to figure out what they think the actual truth is?

    Seriously, you resurrected a dead thread for this?
     
  8. shiro

    shiro Yellow Belt

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    I really don't know why people who do not know can not help but post stuff that is a waste of time to everyone, if you do not know first hand why post anything? The point of this was people spread things that is 3rd or 4th person info at best I thought why not get to the heart of the matter but it seems no one on here has heard from either party or a Japanese Shihan themselves so anyone who has not please do not post anymore it is a waste of everyones time. Please just ignore this if you do not have real info and have a great day.
     
  9. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    :rolleyes: Pot? Kettle? Irony, thy name is Shiro. :lfao:
     
  10. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    :rolleyes: Pot? Kettle? Irony, thy name is Shiro. :lfao:
     
  11. Tames D

    Tames D RECKLESS

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    I don't have the answer to your question, but I want to work on increasing my post count.
     
  12. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    You have been asking the same question for two days now and have been given some good advice. The advice has been to go to the source, because, trying to pull people here on MT into this game of who did what to who, is just not flying. My suggestion is to go and enjoy the site and stop this game you seem to be playing.
     
  13. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    We should hire a ninja to sneak into Hatsumi's place and eavesdrop until he learns the truth.

    I admit that I'm curious about this also, but the facts simply don't seem to be forthcoming.
     
  14. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Your just wasting your time and ours. Those in the know do know what happened and there are more than a few. However, they certainly are not going to share it here and as Elder999 said by email, phone, etc. Your not going to find out unless you are a trusted Bujinkan student with very good connections. That is just the way it is! Sorry!!!
     
  15. shiro

    shiro Yellow Belt

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    It was not a game if you ready alot of the post on here and others alot of people talk without knowing anything really and spread false claims my point was to say say what or who or do not post. It is very clear that my point is proven on here at least this is true. So i am done on here with this.
    Good day
     
  16. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    It's also important to recognize that there can be some major cultural miscommunications across the Japanese and American cultures. It's very possible that an action or exchange was meant one way, but perceived another. I've been trying to dig up a well written article I'd posted on this at one point without luck. It's very possible, it seems, that you can have an exchange that runs kind of like this:
    A Westerner walks into a hotel which is booked solid, with no vacancies at all, and asks at the desk "Do you have any rooms?" "Yes, we have no rooms." "So, I'd like a room for the night." "Certainly, we'll accommodate you. We have no rooms." The exchange could go on and on -- because the Westerner keeps hearing the yesses -- but the place has no rooms. The Japanese is expecting the Westerner to hear the other half of the statement...
     
  17. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Absolutely there are cultural issues between socieities. However, in this situation we need to remember that Mr. Hayes is married to a Japanese woman. Bottom line this is old news, not important to anyones training and really now a non issue.
     
  18. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    You don't control who posts. You don't have any say as to who can answer. You have refused to listen to what you've been told. You've made patently false statements and had them corrected, only to continue to make them.

    If you're not going to be here anymore, fine. But you really should understand that you haven't really added anything other than wasted time (yours and ours), so forgive us if we don't fret about your not thinking any posts here are of any worth.
     

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