Hayes

Discussion in 'SKH/Quest/Toshindo/Shadows of Iga' started by Josh Oakley, Nov 19, 2008.

  1. ToShinDoKa

    ToShinDoKa Green Belt

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    GREAT POST!

    Also, check out SKHQuest.com and go to the densho articles: Anshu sets matters straight concerning that whole ordeal. It has a similar tone, but is a rather awesome message!

    A MUST READ for all To-Shin Do practitioners and inquirers!!! :)
     
  2. HKToshindo

    HKToshindo White Belt

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    I have to apologize to all the Bujinkan members I may have offended.

    I am now in Japan. I have learned the truth.

    Dr. Hatsumi told me himself the truth about the matter.

    Mr Hayes has been lying to us. He knows, and has known for years that he has been out of the Bujinkan.

    That is not all. He has been teaching us stuff he never learned from a real teacher. HIs time spent training in Japan has been much less than he claims. He actually had a home in a place in Japan as far away from Noda as London is from Warsaw, or New York is from Atlanta. Yet he talks about his years of living in Japan as if he could go to more than three or four classes a year.

    I brought along the DVDs I had, and some of the teachers here were kind enough to explain and show how the mnovements were wrong. What Mr Hayes is teaching on his videos is very different from the way the Japanese teachers here want us to move. I have seen the differences and I know the reason for the differences.

    I fee angry at Mr Hayes for lying to me. Worse, in the months that I have been training, hoping to have my movements corrected once I got to Japan, I have built up habits, bad habits. One person told me that I may never be able to overcome those habits. Ubnless I am willing to move to a place with a teacher and spend years concentrating on correcting my mistakes, I will never get good. I trust Mr Hayes and he knowengly lied to me for his profit.

    I have not been posting because after I first posted I got an e-mail from someone refering to himself as Jikaku who warned me of this forum and told me to stay away. Like a fool I listend to him. I wanted to believe that all the stories were lies and that I could learn ninjutsu from Mr Hayes. I have to admit that it was my ego contolling me.

    I know there are people that will attack me. They attacked this site to try to get people to ignore what is being said. I can now admit that Toshindo acts very much like a cult. I would urge people to get out of it now.

    I do not think people can imagine just how soul crushing it is to find out that everything I had hoped and put my dreams on has been a lie. I marvel at what I see Dr Hatsumi doing and feel anger that I may not ever reach that level due to Mr Hayes. I feel shame that I beleived the lie even though it now seems so obvious. I feel sadness over the choices I have made. I now hate Mr Hayes with a passion for all the lies he has spread and the people he attacked to make himself rich.
     
  3. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Okay, friend, chill. If memory serves, you were originally here as a full devotee of Hayes and were yelling down the entire Bujinkan version of things, now you have gone to Japan and been given an alternate you are an absolute devotee of Hatsumi and yelling down Hayes and his organisation. Seriously, you need to find a balance which appears to be lacking...

    Why were you so keen on Hayes being the real deal (for you)? You were stating that he was the absolute top Ninjutsu instructor and were going to learn, not from a teacher, but from his DVD Home Study Course. At that point, you had not visited a single class, as you said there were none near you, but were quite vehementally defending Hayes as the true faith. I would like to know what you based your assessment on? Just the books and articles?

    You were advised that the Bujinkan and Toshindo organisations had some issues between them, with both giving versions of history which contradicted each other, and that if you decided to go with one (Toshindo), then that would most likely exclude you from the other. You have then gone to Japan, and seen exactly the same thing.

    In Japan, you have met with instructors and students, including Hatsumi Sensei, who have given you a version which paints Hayes in a very different light to the one you already had him in. And this has given rise to some very angry feelings in you. Why? Hayes has presented the image to his students that he wants, Hatsumi is presenting the image to his students that he wants, both are (most likely) flawed and highly biased, in the end, it doesn't really matter. Go with the teacher you feel can help you most, and don't worry about the rest. Remember, Hatsumi has shown a habit of painting current students in very favourable colours, and then after they leave, saying that "they never really learnt anything, I never showed them anything, they were never here, they never really got it, etc". He did it with Hayes, with Brian McCarthy, even with Tanemura. The class after Tanemura left, Hatsumi got the group of teachers together to show them the "true" ninjutsu, which he had never shown before (to read between the lines, anyone who follows Tanemura will never really get the arts, because they were never taught while Tanmura was there).

    This is not to denigrate Hatsumi or Hayes. Both have their agendas, and that is the normal way of things. The thing is not to take everything you hear as gospel, and not to get so consumed by the words of others that you base your own sense of worth (in the arts) on how you esteem them. They are just human, after all. Hatsumi and Hayes have both gotten quite rich off this...

    If you find yourself getting angry at Hayes (you use the term "hatred" to describe your feelings towards a man you have never met or had any correspondance with as far as I know), I would gently recommend that you look to yourself. Hayes has not betrayed you, he has simply not lived up to the image you had in your mind... or rather, others have knocked him down from the lofty position he occupied in your mind. And that is not a fault of Hayes, rather it is something in yourself that needs looking at.
     
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  4. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

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    Gotta love that drama.
     
  5. Satt

    Satt Black Belt

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    At this point, I would train with either if there was a dojo close to me. :samurai:
     
  6. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    HKToshindo do not feel the need to apologize nor do I believe you should feel this upset. Personally I think it is great that you have had the opportunity to go to Japan and train with Sensei. That is a very unique and rewarding opportunity. [​IMG] MartialTalk has quite a few members who are high ranking in the Bujinkan and there is some excellent information here. Good luck and enjoy your training and do not swing to much one way or the other or in other words let your passion run you. Good luck! [​IMG]
     
  7. HKToshindo

    HKToshindo White Belt

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    I feel asshamed because I work in a line of business that looks out for fraud, and yet I fell for a fraud.

    Yes, Mr Hayes is a fraud.

    He knows that he was not on good terms with Dr Hatsumi. He knew he had not been taught what as much as he wanted people to think. So when he told people that he was still getting letters from Dr Hatsumi he was lying.

    He told these lies to make money. That is considered fraud. I fell for it.

    I really feel bad about listening to people like Jikaku and SKB when they told be to avoid martialtalk because it was filled with negative Bujinkan people. I also of course listened to the attacks Mr Hayes made on those that pointed out his lack of training and his lies. That is not just fraud, but is the same tactics that groups like the Church of Scientology and the group that gassed the subways in Japan use. Reacting to someone pointing out problems with your story and actions by attacking them is something that would normally set off alarms in me, but I fell for Mr Hayes' use of it. I feel pretty stupid.

    If anyone doubts what I say, they only need to come to Japan. Five minutes talking with people here, talking with Dr Hatsumi, will convince them of the truth.

    I know that many of the folks that study Toshindo DO NOT WANT to face the truth. To do so would destroy their dreams and self image. I know because that is what motivated me to close my eyes to what is obvious. I urge them to consider the truth, find out for themselves and realize that they are following a fraud who will tell them anything to get their money.

    What you learn is not what Dr Hatsumi is trying to teach. There are problems with the very basic ways of moving. One person told me that if you are in the Bujinkan you have a chance of having these mistakes pointed out to you but you never will if you follow Mr Hayes.

    I am mad, but I had a chance to cool down a bit during my weeks in Japan. It was a great experience. The people were very nice in helping overcome my problems.
     
  8. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    HKToshindo,

    Seriously, let it go. Hayes is not a fraud (as opposed to someone like Ashida Kim, for instance [not fraud-busting, simply using a known and recognised name here, no debate needed]), he is simply teaching you his interpretation of what he learnt. And, for the record, although his time in Japan may have been very limited over the last decade or more, Hayes spent a number of years in Japan to begin with, originally learning from Tanemura Sensei (as Hatsumi's second-in-command, as it were), then Hatsumi himself. This is as opposed to many other instructors having their Japan experience only a few weeks or months. So, yes, he is very experienced in the arts.

    The issue you seem to be having is that you are being told two different versions of events, and cannot reconcile in your mind that two opposing people will have opposing stories. What Hayes teaches and what Hatsumi teaches and the differences between them should only matter to the students of the different schools. If you are being taught by Hayes' organisation, then the approach of Hatsumi will be "wrong", according to the way you are taught. If you are in Japan and learning from Hatsumi, then the Toshindo approach will be "wrong" from that point of view. And remember, they are both trying to teach different groups of people attracted for different reasons in very different environments. In that regard, no you will not have "mistakes" pointed out by the Toshindo group, because to them, they are not mistakes. So pick one, and don't worry about the other! It simply shouldn't matter to you.

    I urge you to stop you attacks on Hayes, as it will not be well-looked on here, and as I said earlier find some balance. I am happy that you have found people who you enjoy learning from, but they haven't helped you with your real problems yet. As long as you're still hanging onto this, you still have a few to get past.

    Oh, and you may consider changing your username... just a thought.
     
  9. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

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    You know, the Jinenkan guys seem to be able to avoid all this drama I wonder what their secret is. It must be some special ninja internet invisibility kuji that makes people forget about them as soon as the drama starts. :)
     
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  10. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

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    Yeah man, we heard this story. Could have saved yourself the trouble and asked "Can I really learn to fight from a tape?" Because you can't. Hayes is a genuine martial artist who has taught many. Your feeling taken in because of his tapes (which are supplementary material, not main study tools) is your fault.
     
  11. Michael Stinson

    Michael Stinson Yellow Belt

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    So in 6 to 12 months are we going to be hearing from you about how bad the Bujinkan is because you get choked out by some BJJ guy? Seriously...it seems like you went from drinking one kind of koolaid to another and now want to convert everyone else.

    No organization OR person is perfect. ALL organizations and people make mistakes including the new one you have picked as the holy grail. I have been to Japan...I trained pretty intensively with both Bujinkan and To-shin Do and in the end felt that To-Shin Do had more of what 'I' was looking for. It answered more successfully the questions and problems I saw in my life. That doesn't make Bujinkan training bad...just not right for me. Heck I also train in BJJ because it answers some questions that I felt my To-Shin Do training wasn't answering fully to my satisfaction.

    Regardless of what certain people would like to believe it is not about there being a right way and wrong way. It is about finding a path that is meaningful for your life. Heck...sometimes it is even about finding the wrong path for a time that leads you to the right path...at least until the 'right' path veers one direction and you choose to veer another (See Genbukan, Jinenkan, To-Shin Do, etc).

    Best of luck to you in your training. I hope you find what you are seeking and offer caution in the mindset of attacking that which you have moved from. In particular when you have no true experiences to speak from.
     
  12. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Which is why Stephen Hayes is no longer part of the Bujinkan.

    Let it rest; you've find the path you want. Other people may be quite happy with Toshindo or the Jinenkan or Genbukan. Or something not at all ninjutsu...

    Don't waste anymore of your energy on the past; use it instead to improve now.
     
  13. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

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    Exactly man, MA is a personal journey and more people need to realize that or read Bruce Lee's books to understand the concept. I've trained in Japanese styles, Korean styles, hell, I went Bujinkan crazy for a year but I've realized that karate right in my wheelhouse and that's that.
     
  14. stephen

    stephen Purple Belt

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    I think that this is the important part, and the part that, although it seems obvious, is actually the sticking point. There are many people who would argue that they're both 'really the same art taught a different way' or something like that.

    It's important to remember that they are, in fact, different. Choose what you like, but understand that it's a choice, and not simply one of teaching style or language of instruction.
     
  15. SKB

    SKB Green Belt

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    I believe I suggested you not spend time arguing with folks on here? You also wanted to talk to TSD folks, so I pointed you in that direction? I apologize if you think I mislead you somehow?

    Good luck in finding what it is you are looking for.........
     
  16. shadycrzy

    shadycrzy White Belt

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    This is why I love Ninjas! Everything is a perfect setup for an action movie:
    If you could have seen the movie that just went through my head...
    Good times.**
    *Words in quote boxes not actual quotations, all quote boxes are used for dramatic/comedic effect
    **Movie may or may not have been an epic combination of Shaft and Enter the Dragon
     
  17. Hudson69

    Hudson69 Brown Belt

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    In law enforcement you deal with a lot of people; this guy sounds like a zealot and his statements indicate that he probably never went to Japan. If that is not the case I apologize, if it is then get back on your meds sir.
     
  18. TheStudent

    TheStudent Yellow Belt

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    This just seems to go round and round. So. . .

    Here is my take on it and why this entire brouhaha is a waste of valuable time.

    Stephen K. Hayes trained with Soke Hatsumi in the 1970's. He introduced the art to the US and western countries in the 1980's. At that time he was in the good graces of the Bujinkan and was a very active member and a key individual in the growth of the Bujinkan. In the 1990's he began to want to develop the style to fit the current methods of attack that people would be defending agains (lunge punch is laughable even in a bar fight with bubba Foxworthy, the super red-neck!).

    In standard Japanese fashion, Hatsumi neither condoned nor disagreed with this idea, but simply said he should do what he felt was right (in Japanese culture that is similar to "you do what you gotta do, but don't let the door hit you on the way out.")

    Hayes moved off in his own direction, and stopped paying the bujinkan dues and promoting what he taught as Bujinkan. Soke Hatsumi removed the name from the wall as a visible symbol that he has moved on and started his own thing. End of story.

    I went round and round with this myself for over a year and here is what I finally decided:
    A) The Bujinkan Ryus are wonderful and very effective. (Most students are NOT experienced martial artists, so realized the next piece only refersto those who have no outside experience, I know there are exceptions) The current method of teaching is so full of "find what feels right for your body" that the effectiveness of the art is being compromised. People with currently effective and skilled abilities must water their techniques and skills down to fit into the class. Training with a partner who insists you throw a lunge punch and then only throws one at you reduces your ability to build effectiveness in a real-world altercation.

    B)Hayes has tried to add current fighting styles to the responses of the original systems. He is a bit too full of himself and has toned down the harshness in return for allowing for legal repercussions (the thief sues the homeowner who shot him and wins, etc.), so open hands and takedowns are emphasized over the multiple fists he was originally taught. He seems enamored with the Godai, which WAS in the 1970's bujinkan, and has structured everything to match, when the original was merely a method of teaching types of responses, not a system of categorization. (watch the old tapes and listen to the interviews, it was there, just not nearly at the level Hayes wrote about it.) He also over-emphasized the "personal student" part, which is sort-of true, since the growing bujinkan forced new members to train with Hatsumi's students, with him overseeing them and only occaisionally working personally 1 on 1. But he wasn't and isn't the last personal student of Hatsumi. Current video tapes show Hatsumi training in his small dojo with 8 - 12 students as well as training in the big hall with 40 to 200 students.

    So, in the end, here is what I decided to do => I am training in To-Shin Do while studying and practicing the Bujinkan curriculum as a supplement. I am a member of both and a proud of it. When I see a technique in To-Shin Do, I find the counterpart and practice both variations. After all, Soke Hatsumi always emphasises the variations possible of every technique is more important that the exact motions, so I take that as: Bujinkan is the source, and the To-Shin Do is just a variation. And, of course, I train with partners who will throw current/real attacks and traditional attacks alternatively, so I can learn to respond to any attack. My one rule is NEVER aim to miss. Go slowly at first, but aim at the real target and if I miss, I get hit (slowly and softly). Then, as skill and muscle memory is developed, go faster and trust each other to stop before damage.

    I also believe that both Bujinkan and To-Shin Do can be competative, since all modern variations (judo, karate, BJJ, etc.) are competative. The difference is building skill enough to stop or shift to lesser vulnerable targets, which most modern arts do. But that's another topic :)
     
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  19. newtothe dark

    newtothe dark Purple Belt

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    Great response unfortunately its like religionin that one church will tell you that the other church is going to hell and is a cult. That is because of one very simple fact, if there is one dollar no one wants to share.
     
  20. nitflegal

    nitflegal Green Belt

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    Sigh, and the wheels, they keep a-turning.

    Just two things;

    One; many of the best, most senior, and most experienced shidoshi in the US have publically and personally stated that Hayes is a wealth of information on all of the disciplines in the Bujinkan and was the person who taught them the art. They as well as any of us may disagree with Hayes' decision to go the Toshindo route but to then take that as Hayes is some sort of fraudulent snake-oil salesman is simply foolish. If you study the Bujinkan in the US, chances are somewhere in your instructor's lineage is Mr. Hayes. Dislike his path all you want but I think we in the X-kans do him AND ourselves a disservice slagging him. It may be illuminating that before he "broke" with the Booj he was regarded by the people worldwide as one of the best instructors in the art and heavily promoted by soke himself. He didn't become a know-nothing fraud until politics intervened. Were people just lying about his abilities for all those years before hand?

    Second, I have no idea what prompted Mr. Hayes to form Toshindo as I've not studied it. I do think it sad to see the friendships that were damaged and destroyed by this action amongst some others. I hope it will be looked back upon as worth the pain but I have no idea if it actually will or not.

    Matt

    PS, for God's sake, if your sensei taught you the "lunge-punch" without conveying the fact that it's a training tool to perfect your body-mechanics while you train and not the common way you'd punch in a real fight once you've understood the taijutsu then he did you a disservice. If he/she told you and it didn't register, I'd suggest paying better attention.
     

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