Hayes

Discussion in 'SKH/Quest/Toshindo/Shadows of Iga' started by Josh Oakley, Nov 19, 2008.

  1. Archangel M

    Archangel M Senior Master

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    Not a Booj guy but I have to ask. What is the sense in THAT?

    Why "perfect body mechanics" in response to an admittedly unrealistic attack? Seems counterproductive to me.
     
  2. savagek

    savagek Yellow Belt

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    Hello all,

    Maybe if Nitflegal had included Inashigata & Ken tai ichi jo and maybe the words push~pull~sink~rotate~ and breath and moving the hips forward and down this may have clarified his PS a bit more.

    Just my input.

    Be well and Gassho,

    Ken Savage
    Bujinkan Shidoshi
    The Winchendon Martial Arts Center/ Bujinkan Savage Dojo
    Winchendon MA
    U.S.A
    www.winmartialarts.com
     
  3. TheStudent

    TheStudent Yellow Belt

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    On the point of the lunge punch issue, I'm not sure if I was the one Nitflegal was saying it to, or anyone reading the thread. But, he might have a point.

    If the point of a lunge punch is to give a highly visible target for the training partner to work off of, it is VERY useful for perfecting body mechanics. Honestly, some throws, breaks and other techniques are VERY hard to pull off on a normal modern punch. So, you need a very simplistic, basic punch to use when you are first figuring out how to coordinate your hands, feet, hips and all the rest of your joints so they end up accomplishing the technique you are learning.

    However, this punch is formally taught as the foundation of proper mechanics in punching. Bujinkan punches were developed in the era where combatants wore 70+ pounds of armor and you needed rock solid mechanics to move without losing your balance. Also, most punches and such are designed to knock the opponent down, not cause direct impact damage. Look at a bujinkan shuto, especially the ones in the sanshin no kata. The shutos are designed to push the opponent down where he becomes helpless. These same techniques CAN easily work in the modern, highly mobile world of modern clothing and techniques. BUT, they require modifications for the application to work.

    So, the way I see it is this: Learn the technique against an unresisting arm/foot/body. then practice it against any valid attack of the same variety (right lunge punch, right straight punch, right jab, etc. Any with the right foot and arm both in front). Then graduate to variations that work for reverse punches, etc. where the hand and opposite foot are in front.or any other potential body position of an attacker.

    Remember, in the 1970's Hatsumi's students were breaking rocks with their punches. But when was the last time you heard about anyone doing that today? How many bujinkan students consistently use a makiwara or heavy bag? I'm not knocking the Bujinkan or Jinenkan or Gembukan. I just feel that if I am not able to practice with realistic attacks, I'm not going to get where I want to go.

    By the way, if the lunge punch is just a learning tool for the actual attacks in the Bujinkan, but not the actual punch you would use in a real-world attack, what is being taught as the correct punch? All I have ever seen in current training/videos/demos/etc. is that punch. So if that is just a training tool, what is the correct punch? (no sarcasm intended. I am utterly serious.) I can't find anything anywhere that is formal or official bujinkan that includes non-lunge punches. Everytime I have worked with someone who has EXCLUSIVE bujinkan training with no previous MA training, they stop me and say I am punching wrong for Bujinkan if I use anything else (and that is IF they do any free form practice at all). Many do only the specific moves where the response is allowed to vary, but the attack MUST be the exact attack every time.

    Again, I love the traditional ryus within the Bujinkan. But To-Shin Do is the closest I can find to a real world environment to train in. So, like I said before, I train in To-Shin Do and practice with Bujinkan.
     
  4. pakyon

    pakyon White Belt

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    HKTOSHINDO said: "and the group that gassed the subways in Japan".

    Oh BTW... the senior members of that group were students of Hatsumi Sensei too- FWIW.
     
  5. RRepster

    RRepster Yellow Belt

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    From what I've gathered over the years since the early 80's when people like Hayes and Bussey and others traveled to Japan to study with Hatsumi sensei he was teaching them Togakure Ryu and wanted them to take what they learned back home to sort of spread the gospel. After that he started to formally bring everything together to form BBT.

    The whole thing is primarily an evolved business decision. There really isn't any greater conspiracy to it all. What Hayes has done and to an extent Hatsumi as well is just made their own Ryu with themselves as the 1st generation GM. Because Hayes is American his method of doing it looks odd because it's formally copyrighted, that's just the modern American way of keeping something in the 'family.
     
  6. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Hmm, not really sure why this one has been resurrected, but as it has, some corrections....

    Honestly, most of what you've put here is incorrect. Hatsumi was always teaching a variety of systems that he inherrited, but it was all under the Togakure Ryu name, despite almost none of it being Togakure Ryu itself. The name Budo Taijutsu came about in the mid-late 90's for the organisation.

    In terms of Toshindo (and the Bujinkan) being essentially "business evolution", well, no. Toshindo is Hayes' modern application and expression of his years of training, and the Bujinkan is Hatsumi's organisation to teach the lessons he gained from the lines he teaches. Neither are "ryu" in any sense, both are organisations. Hayes' being American has obviously influenced the modern approach, but it has nothing to do with any form of "copyright" approach... remember that the traditional Ryu-ha (Koryu) are considered a copyright that is held by the current Soke, so copyrighting isn't odd or bizarre at all.

    In very simple terms, Toshindo is not the Bujinkan, but has it's roots in it. Stephen Hayes was removed from the Bujinkan list of teachers/members a number of years ago now. The removal happened years after Toshindo was formed, and happened in no small way due to Toshindo being formed.
     
  7. RRepster

    RRepster Yellow Belt

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    Correct, that's what I was driving at.
     
  8. bljohnson

    bljohnson Yellow Belt

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    Read a few comments on how Bujinkan people always punch unrealistic. Not true, we do use lunge punches to learn a new technique but go to Japan and train and don't punch with realism and see how long it takes for a shihan to ask why.
     
  9. Indagator

    Indagator Blue Belt

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    bljohnson your comment immediately brings to mind the Shidoshi at my dojo - you know when people go to punch but they (for some reason) aim away from your face?
    Yeah Shidoshi will say, every time, "Why are you punching over there - I'm here!".

    He's not happy unless you are coming at him with full intent to punch him in the face (or whatever other area).

    Tbh, I am somewhat like that too although for different reasons... I feel that I learn better and better absorb the core principles under a situation where if I do not move (or react or whatever) then I will cop a blow to the face. And on those times when I do get hit, it helps me learn to move!
     
  10. shiro

    shiro Yellow Belt

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    I myself am sick of hearing all the BS so lets just get to the point because no one ever answers this if you do not answer this please do not go into the round and round game if you do not know then you do not know. What did Stephen K. Hayes do to upset Mr. Masaaki Hatsumi? not hear say, who on hear has heard from Mr. Hatsumi what Mr. Hayes did to upset him. Facts are Mr. Hayes can still issue Bujinkan rank(chooses not too). He does teach Toshin do but still teaches the Bujinkan(classical) waza still. The people who did get Bujinkan rank did not get it from just studying Mr. Hayes TSD but also was studying the Bujinkan waza as well. I hear all the talk read all the post but no one ever says why. So lets end it and just say Mr. Hayes did this this year and it upset Mr. Hatsumi and this is the problem.
     
  11. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Hmm. Is there a reason you're wanting to open this particular can of worms again? For the record, Hayes distanced himself from Hatsumi, wasn't paying fees, and was using the name of the Kukishin Ryu (specifically) on ranking certificates, indicating that he was ranking his students in that art, which he had no authority to do. And no, Hayes cannot still issue Bujinkan rank, he's not part of the Bujinkan, and has no authority there. The same is true of my organisation (we split from the Bujinkan in 2001), the Jinenkan (1996), and the Genbukan (1984). When you leave the Bujinkan (willingly or not), you can't continue to rank in the Bujinkan... to say that Hayes can is to grossly and massively misunderstand things.
     
  12. shiro

    shiro Yellow Belt

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    Mr. Hayes did use Toshin Do Kasumi an Kukishinden Ryu Bojutsu on certs for people studying like say the Bojutsu kihon. But according to Mr. Ohashi Mr. Hayes still can issue rank in the Bujinkan to people studying the Bujinkan classical methods still from him( he chooses not too). But this has nothing to do with my question all these years and a lot of stuff being said but I have never heard this is what he did that upset Mr. Hatsumi and this is when it happen. I would like someone to say this is what he did and when and the info came from Mr. Hatsumi or atleast a Japanese Shihan and not third or fourth person out.
     
  13. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    What is your source for saying "according to Mr. Ohashi, Mr. Hayes can still issue rank in the Bujinkan..."? That doesn't match anything I've read or heard.
     
  14. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    If he's not a member of the Bujinkan, how can he issue rank in it? If the directive has been rather clearly given that Bujinkan members should not train with Hayes or in his program -- how can his program issue rank in the Bujinkan? I think you're mistaken or have misunderstood something.
     
  15. shiro

    shiro Yellow Belt

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    Mr. Ohashi told me that there is no ban on Toshindo people and they are welcome to train at the Hombu as far as he knows and Mr. Hayes can still give out Bujinkan rank to students who are still training in the classical stuff under Mr. Hayes as well(Bujinkan). But like I said I want someone who has heard it from Mr. Hatsumi or at least a Japanese shihan what Mr. Hayes did to upset Mr. Hatsumi and when. No 3rd or 4th person info
     
  16. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Don't have a dog in this hunt at all....the only facts I'm aware of are that Hatsumi sensei told a senior student to take Hayes name shingle (nafuda) taken down from the board (nafudakake)-in essence,saying-without saying-that, as far as the Bujinkan, Hayes doesn't exist. I don't know anything else-especially about Hayes' and Hatsumi's relationship, and I'll bet that very few others do.As for the rest, it's a Japanese thing, man-no one will ever "know" for certain, any more than we know about the very famous and public split between Hatsumi and Tanemura....some translation is needed, though:
    THe Hombu is overcrowded with foreign students and tourists who don't know how to behave. Of course you're welcome there :
    Who cares what Stephen Hayes does? He can do whatever he wants-it's no more legitimate than a PhD. from Sears, and twice as useless.... Hope this clears things up, because it's really more than you're going to get from most Bujinkan people, who are just as likely to ask, who's this Shiro guy, and why is he entitled to the straight dope, anyway? :lfao:
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
  17. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Bottom line those in the know are not going to give you an answer on this on a forum!
     
  18. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Or email....or the phone....or in person....:lfao:....
     
  19. shiro

    shiro Yellow Belt

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    Alot of people spread things they know nothing about and continue to spread things that are false. Nothing that was said is either new or about what the subject at hand was either you know or do not. I mean really all the talking over the years when it gets right down to it this is the direct question is there anyone on here who can answer it.
     
  20. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    No.
     

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