Hayes

[GBlues]

Yeah I get that there different. Yes, Hayes was one of the reasons I went looking for ninjutsu, but I chose this style not because of him, but because of the instructor that I have now. That was what made my final decision. Not Mr. Hayes, I have alot of respect for the man, but I'm not learning from him, I'm learning from someone else who has been honest with me from day one. So I never felt the need to ask any of the questions some of the new guys are. I just figured if it was important my instructor would tell me, " Here's the deal..." and some things he has. Mostly because he comes on martial talk every so often and checks out the posts. He has pretty much set me straight on a few things here and there. From previous posts related to this subject. But anyways, yeah I know that they are seperate.

However, now let me ask this question. Not regarding Mr. Hayes or anyone else. What is the significance of removing someone's Hamon, in a martial arts school? Is it a loss of face, or a more of, " Perhaps I promoted you too soon to this rank?" Maybe? OR is it that they have done something that goes directly against the head instructors wishes and or against the art?

 

[KevinCasey]

What is the significance of removing someone's [intention stick], in a martial arts school?

I imagine this varies a lot by the teacher's personality and how they manage their relationships. Our school maintains an intention stick board with rank markers, and occasionally, I need to remove someone from the board.

For me, the board is "my current students", so if someone is not coming to class for a substantial period, or they tell me that they are not going to be training at the Boulder Quest Center for the conceivable future, I take the stick down. It just means, "not currently training with me." It's emotionally neutral - it has no bearing on whether I approve or disapprove of how they are spending their time. I also still consider the person to hold their rank, were they to return.

Now, my sense is that the word "hamon" had a special meaning in old-time Japanese society - a quality control mechanism that says, "I can't vouch for what this person is doing now - they're not just on-break from training; they're really doing their own thing." I imagine that in a feudal and loyalty-based society, that's a bad thing. I don't know what it means now in Japanese society, let alone in the mind of an enigmatic ninja master, other than a sense of seperation.

Since Dr. Hatsumi didn't issue an explanation or a formal statement of "hamon" or anything else, I assume that taking Mr. Hayes' intention stick down is an acknowledgement of the obvious - that To-Shin Do is a seperate thing from the Bujinkan. I also figure that these guys are a little too big to bother with using such a thing as some passive-aggressive public flogging, so I take it as a simple acknowledgement of the reality that they lead different organizations now. That's just branding, in the modern language of our day.

 

[GBlues]

Ah that actually makes a little more sense now. So then I wonder why it's such a big deal to alot of people? Seems to me like it's a perfectly normal thing to do. As far as attendance goes, ie current students. I know my school has those sticks on the wall too, I figured it was a carry-over from japan. I'd never seen one before. I'll have to think on this some more. Just seems like a little thing that perhaps has been blown far out of proportion. Anyways thanks for the information, I greatly appreciate it.

 

[KevinCasey]

Oh, I totally get why the debate happens. We put a lot of faith in our teachers and our training - as we must to learn and advance - and so we all want to be reassured that we've got the good, real, and pure stuff. Especially as Americans, we don't easily trust.

So, both Bujinkan and To-Shin Do practitioners want to feel that their path is the best path. It's hard for us to accept, "best path for me" as good enough. We want our path to be "best path for all people, for all times, everywhere." That makes us feel like what we are doing is the ultimate path.

If we could read some additional significance into the actions of the seniors of our organization, we might find more evidence to support our fervent hope that our own path is the very best one. It's unnecessary, but it's very human.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

If you wish to find more about Hamon

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl

Go to the membership rules and look at page 19 which shows the differences of Hamon,Dakkai,Tsukoku,and Jomei.

I am not in the Genbukan but this is the only thing I can find in english explaining it.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

If you wish to find more about Hamon

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl

Go to the membership rules and look at page 19 which shows the differences of Hamon,Dakkai,Tsukoku,and Jomei.

I am not in the Genbukan but this is the only thing I can find in english explaining it.

Ok.

Wow.

Then if it applies in the Booj as it does on that page....I get the impression, given the apparent public, while-class-was-going-on nature of the plaque occurence , and given that in Japanese culture that is an extremely rare thing to do in public...I get the impression that that ain't just "Go your own way, glasshoppah" bad that's like, "You are not my son" bad......

 

[Cryozombie]

So, both Bujinkan and To-Shin Do practitioners want to feel that their path is the best path. It's hard for us to accept, "best path for me" as good enough.

Actually, FWIW, most Bujinkan people *I* know have very little concern for what Hayes does in/with Toshindo as far as a concern for the "Best Path".

The debate arises because Hatsumi has stated openly that Hayes is doing somthing seperate, is not part of our organization, and we are not to train with him...

Then Hayes denies that to his Toshindo students and they come on these discussion forums and "Correct" us about what is true in the Bujinkan.


That seems to be where the points of contention usually start.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Actually, FWIW, most Bujinkan people *I* know have very little concern for what Hayes does in/with Toshindo as far as a concern for the "Best Path".

The debate arises because Hatsumi has stated openly that Hayes is doing somthing seperate, is not part of our organization, and we are not to train with him...

Then Hayes denies that to his Toshindo students and they come on these discussion forums and "Correct" us about what is true in the Bujinkan.


That seems to be where the points of contention usually start.

Ah.

Choosing one or the other path would be one thing but I can see how this would be something else again.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I trained in To-shin-do for almost two years before our school switched to the jizaikan curriculum, and I never had any clue that there was any hostility between the bujinkan and to-shin-do. I always assumed people thought that bujinkan was the "traditional stuff" and to-shin-do was the "americanized" version.

When I joined the Illinois Quest center, I knew the "programs" were different, but I had no idea at the time that the organizations maintained no connection to each other. Guess I know now though.

 

[SKB]

*OR*
Toshindo newbies could stop claiming that everything is fine with Hayes' Bujinkan membership and everyone else is just jealous, which has been the spin the last few times this topic came up.

*OR*
SSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

It gets old. Maybe let folks objectively lay out the facts? Then each person can decied if the even give a rat's *** about it in the end?

 

[ginshun]

I can't believe that people actually care enough about this that there are current arguments going on. Didn't all this happen like two years ago?

 

[HaydenMorison]

This is regarding Hayes' plaque been taken off the wall of the Bujinkan.

I asked my sensei who has acheived a black belt in both To-shin Do and Bujinkan and this is what he thinks.

Firstly, he believes that Hatsumi having spent decades with Hayes as his student (I'm guessing building a really close relationship as well) wouldn't do such a thing to Hayes without a deeper purpose.

After training with eachother for decades, Hatsumi must find different ways of training and testing Hayes, so deeper and more complex methods of testing are done, such things as testing Hayes as a person and how he would react to taking down his plaque down from the Bujinkan, a test of ego I guess.

Hatsumi still values him as a student, even if they are half way across the world from eachother and this is half the reason why it was done, more of a long distance test of personality.

After hearing this from my sensei it really opened my eyes to the true test of a martial artist, their spirit.

I hope this helps in understanding, although this is was what my sensei believed was going on and not sure if it is 100% fact, but interesting and insightful none the less.

- Hayden

 

[Cryozombie]

:BSmeter:

 

[jks9199]

This is regarding Hayes' plaque been taken off the wall of the Bujinkan.

I asked my sensei who has acheived a black belt in both To-shin Do and Bujinkan and this is what he thinks.

Firstly, he believes that Hatsumi having spent decades with Hayes as his student (I'm guessing building a really close relationship as well) wouldn't do such a thing to Hayes without a deeper purpose.

After training with eachother for decades, Hatsumi must find different ways of training and testing Hayes, so deeper and more complex methods of testing are done, such things as testing Hayes as a person and how he would react to taking down his plaque down from the Bujinkan, a test of ego I guess.

Hatsumi still values him as a student, even if they are half way across the world from eachother and this is half the reason why it was done, more of a long distance test of personality.

After hearing this from my sensei it really opened my eyes to the true test of a martial artist, their spirit.

I hope this helps in understanding, although this is was what my sensei believed was going on and not sure if it is 100% fact, but interesting and insightful none the less.

- Hayden

I'm afraid that this is probably a little bit of putting as positive a spin on it as possible.

As I said before -- there's only the two people who really know what the status of their relationship is. It seems rather clear that Hayes is no longer part of the Bujinkan. Whether he has maintained a student-teacher relationship with Hatsumi is between them. It's even possible that they each perceive the relationship differently... especially when you consider the challenges of communicating across cultures.

In the end, I think it's simple. Train with the group that you're comfortable with and feel like you belong with. Both groups offer some pretty cool and impressive stuff...

 

[zeeberex]

I'm afraid that this is probably a little bit of putting as positive a spin on it as possible.

As I said before -- there's only the two people who really know what the status of their relationship is. It seems rather clear that Hayes is no longer part of the Bujinkan. Whether he has maintained a student-teacher relationship with Hatsumi is between them. It's even possible that they each perceive the relationship differently... especially when you consider the challenges of communicating across cultures.

In the end, I think it's simple. Train with the group that you're comfortable with and feel like you belong with. Both groups offer some pretty cool and impressive stuff...

Agreed, the business is theirs not ours. DONE

 

[stephen]

As I said before -- there's only the two people who really know what the status of their relationship is.

Some people argue that that may have been true before one of those people decided to make a public act of letting everyone else know....

 

[Obi Wan Shinobi]

If you wish to find more about Hamon

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl

Go to the membership rules and look at page 19 which shows the differences of Hamon,Dakkai,Tsukoku,and Jomei.

I am not in the Genbukan but this is the only thing I can find in english explaining it.

I read the whole membership rulebook, Man they are strict in the Genbukan......

 

[HKToshindo]

Anshu Hayes has commented on this. Now that people know the misunderstanding that went on, and the actions of some foreign students in Japan, maybe there can be some peace between Toshindo and other forms of ninjutsu.

www.stephenkhayes.com

Questions and Answers - Part 4
Two young men in Texas - Patrick Tow and Rayford Outland - decided to do a History Fair high school project about ninjutsu training and my work. If you might be interested in some minor points about my life and how I ended up where I did, check previous questions 1-4 and questions 5-8 and questions 9-11.
12. We realize this may be a touchy subject, but we heard you were expelled from the Bujinkan’s list of authorized judan 10th Degrees. We would love to hear your personal take on what happened.
A few of my senior students did not want me to comment on this. They feel that to address no-name keyboard snipers makes me look defensive and gives them credibility. On the other hand, other students and friends feel that because there is so much pernicious false information and cowardly character slander on the internet, it might be time to address the issue.
My skill as a practitioner and teacher - regardless of what rank degree I earned as a student - is on display all over the world through my personal appearances and DVD courses. My years of training with my teacher Masaaki Hatsumi have been documented in 19 books. You can look up what Black Belt Magazine says about my impact on the martial arts world. Nonetheless a few people still peck away at promoting this pointless gossip on the internet, so here is my take on it since you asked.
All this talk of my being “expelled” comes from a few of Masaaki Hatsumi’s newer foreign students (people enrolled after I made the art famous in the 1980s). Some of those newer black belts feel hard pressed to compete with my impact, and believe that if my influence were out of the picture, it would be easier for them to appear more powerful and important.
Based on observation, it is my opinion that a few of those foreigners are envious of the role that I played in Masaaki Hatsumi’s life. I escorted him from the shadows to full visibility. I propelled him to international fame through my books. I made it possible for thousands of students all over the world to study his art even though he had only two dozen students when I was living there. I established the foundation that took him to enormously rich prosperity. Some of Hatsumi Sensei’is newer students crave a sense of being that important too, but apparently they feel their roles are overshadowed by my influence in Masaaki Hatsumi’s life history.
These people seem to be nervous about what I teach, and are discouraged by the attention my words command in the greater martial arts world. Apparently a few of these students kept nagging for my name to be taken off the rank wall now that I am focused on teaching To-Shin Do. I guess they figured that if they could not beat me, they could at least cheat me.
I heard that some pestered Hatsumi Sensei to the point where he dismissed it all by saying they could do whatever they wanted. Reportedly, one of the students strutted over and took my name plank down himself. I really do not know the true story. There seems to be a lot of confusion in the Bujinkan organization right now, as a few ambitious people try to edge each other out in hopes of taking over when Hatsumi Sensei chooses to retire. That is what my friends in the Bujinkan tell me they witness all too often.
All this silliness began in 2006, but Masaaki Hatsumi himself has never acknowledged to me in any personal conversations or letters any word of “firing” me. My most recent letter from Hatsumi Sensei arrived three weeks ago (as of this writing), and he still has never acknowledged banning me from his life.
Why would Hatsumi Sensei avoid committing to an answer when asked? Why would he deliberately take an ambiguous fog-shrouded position? Maybe he is a ninja? Maybe he likes keeping people off balance? Maybe he is testing his students? “How much of what you see is really just what you want to believe?” he might ask.
So then what is true?
I did most of my learning under Masaaki Hatsumi’s guidance in the 1970s and 1980s, when I was in my 20s and 30s. I lived in Japan for some years and traveled back and forth each spring and fall for some years. I earned a 10th Degree Black Belt in Nin-po Taijutsu. I enjoyed my training. All of my books proudly acknowledge Masaaki Hatsumi as the source of my martial inspiration. My critics today were not there in the 1970s when Hatsumi Sensei was teaching ninjutsu. I was. Therefore, it is impossible for them to know what I know about what Masaaki Hatsumi taught in his ninjutsu days, and how it is different from the budo taijutsu they practice in the Bujinkan today.
Those are all indisputable facts.
Now in the 2000s, I very much enjoy teaching and sharing my insights into practical self protection and self perfection. My teaching approach is called To-Shin Do, and it is based on what I studied alongside Japanese friends in Masaaki Hatsumi’s dojo in the 1970s and 1980s
Perhaps the best way to view the situation is to understand that what I teach is extremely relevant to the kinds of danger that routinely arise in Western life. My job is to teach my fellow Westerners urgently needed spiritual tools in this current age of cultural degeneracy and financial confusion. At age 60 with way over 40 years of practice and application behind my belt knot, I serve far more people better by sharing To-Shin Do applied ninjutsu philosophies and tactics around the world as a teacher, than I would by just studying Japanese forms in Noda City as a student as I did half a lifetime ago.
In other words, my real rank is “Stephen K. Hayes.” Name plank or not, I serve the world with my budo to the best of my capability. Such a life is exactly what my teacher Masaaki Hatsumi has demonstrated to me since I began studying with him in 1975, and I am proud to follow his example.

I know that this does not paint the Bujinkan in a very good light. Despite the fact that there are students who live in Japan who would go against their teacher, I still wish to take a trip to continue my training in the land of ninjutsu. I have joined this forum to try to find the names of those that had a hand in this little incident in order to avoid them.

 

[Cryozombie]

*edit*

Nevermind... Im not getting into this BS again.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Here is the Bujinkan's dojo administrator's account of the situation taken from his bulletin board.






Now personally I feel that Stephen Hayes brought a lot of great exposure to the Bujinkan and from all accounts of people that I personally know that have trained with him he is an excellent martial practitioner!

It is concrete that he is doing his own thing with To Shin Do and more power to him. It should also be as no surprise the actions that Hatsumi took. This happens in all organizations so we might as well get over it!


In the martial world people train, grow and advance and some times people take another step and go out on their own. Good luck to Mr. Hayes and To Shin Do!