Good teaching clip

[guy b]

One of the difficulties in talking about wing chun is many folks confuse development and application.

The WSL posters on this forum have always been very clear about the difference. I don't see any confusion here unless you mean from Juany which would be a bit harsh (he is trying to help you).

My remarks are directed to the list-am not interested in conversing with guy and lfj and lobo on this point.

I don't see what you have to be annoyed about in this discussion, nobody has been rude and interesting points have been raised. I can't understand why you would be annoyed with Lobo, he only just joined the forum and (correct me if I'm wrong) don't think he has ever even tried to speak to you

Closing this thread may be a good idea.

Why? I am confused how anything here could be interpreted as being offensive.

 

[Juany118]

You are not being very observant or reading the replies if you think there is punching for the ceiling.

What problems do you think there are with an offset wu or feeding faak to check the student's wu?

Slow the video down and you see him moving his arm forward with his fist pointing to the ceiling out of the gate. In essence all he does is move a virtual right angle towards the student. As for the rest, asked and answered already.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[wckf92]

Am I reading this correctly...that some here view crossing their centerline as a no-no or 'violation'?

 

[ShortBridge]

Am I reading this correctly...that some here view crossing their centerline as a no-no or 'violation'?

Yes, definitely!

I regard it is a good rule to carefully break now and again, at strategic times, from strategic positions.

 

[Juany118]

Am I reading this correctly...that some here view crossing their centerline as a no-no or 'violation'?

A real fight may force it, but it is typically avoided. The reason being is that if you do it, in a real fight, you can essentially end up, for lack of a better term, tangling yourself up. Also the idea is to maintain a proper structure that, among other things, allows you to always attack and defend with both arms simultaneously.

Reach across your body with one arm and punch with the other. Then do the same but only reach to your centerline. I think you will feel a difference and that isn't even addressing the point that you can A. Tangle yourself up or B. That it can give your opponent an opportunity to trap both arms by pinning one under the other.

As I said a fight can force it to happen as they are dynamic, but in my training it's to be avoided via proper footwork and the like.



Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[guy b]

Slow the video down and you see him moving his arm forward with his fist pointing to the ceiling out of the gate. In essence all he does is move a virtual right angle towards the student. As for the rest, asked and answered already.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

What is his hip and elbow doing?

 

[guy b]

A real fight may force it, but it is typically avoided. The reason being is that if you do it, in a real fight, you can essentially end up, for lack of a better term, tangling yourself up. Also the idea is to maintain a proper structure that, among other things, allows you to always attack and defend with both arms simultaneously.

Reach across your body with one arm and punch with the other. Then do the same but only reach to your centerline. I think you will feel a difference and that isn't even addressing the point that you can A. Tangle yourself up or B. That it can give your opponent an opportunity to trap both arms by pinning one under the other.

As I said a fight can force it to happen as they are dynamic, but in my training it's to be avoided via proper footwork and the like.



Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

How do you interpret the section at the end of SNT? How do you position your wu?

 

[guy b]

Yes, definitely!

I regard it is a good rule to carefully break now and again, at strategic times, from strategic positions.

How do you position your wu hand?

 

[guy b]

edited

 

[Juany118]

What is his hip and elbow doing?

You keep asking questions. Here is an idea and if you follow through on this request I will start answering again.

The way a discussion works is one side (you in this case) puts forward a premise. Other people make observations, give opinions or raise questions. The OP then does what Lobo did, explains a potential reason for something, in that case feeding a fak.

Continuously asking new questions is not engaging in a discussion, it's fishing for something to can turn into a "gotcha" moment. So if you care to address the points raised but a few of us, awesome, I would love to possibly learn something but if you are just going to keep fishing I am tapping out.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[guy b]

You keep asking questions. Here is an idea and if you follow through on this request I will start answering again.

The way a discussion works is one side (you in this case) puts forward a premise. Other people make observations, give opinions or raise questions. The OP then does what Lobo did, explains a potential reason for something, in that case feeding a fak.

Continuously asking new questions is not engaging in a discussion, it's fishing for something to can turn into a "gotcha" moment. So if you care to address the points raised but a few of us, awesome, I would love to possibly learn something but if you are just going to keep fishing I am tapping out.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

I am phrasing it as questions so that you can feel your way to an answer without embarrassment. To phrase it in a different way, don't look at the direction the hand is pointing, that is irrelevant in this drill. Instead look at the direction of the elbow and hip drive. This is a major part of what the drill is training.

He is also instructing a beginner in terms of what do so much slower, more breaks and less fluid than between two experienced practitioners. I posted because I thought it was a good teaching clip, not because it is the best example of the drill that is available. It is useful in that it is slow and it breaks down what is being shown quite well

 

[LFJ]

Slow the video down and you see him moving his arm forward with his fist pointing to the ceiling out of the gate. In essence all he does is move a virtual right angle towards the student.

Again, you are not being very observant and are either not reading or understanding replies.

This drill developes coordination between hip and elbow for full body power.

If you try to actually punch each other, leading with the fist, you will overextend and the elbow will pop up to get over the bong losing the hip-elbow connection, not to mention position when the bong hits it.

This is why VT punches are "uncommitted" and actions in training are often uncompleted to isolate important aspects. Development vs application.

What does the student's punch get trained to do when the bong is not there? Extend to the chin because the elbow drives it forward to center.

If your mind is at the fist, bring it back to the elbow, keep it low connected to the hip, and have another look.

As for the rest, asked and answered already.

Not really. You acknowldged the purpose of the faak-sau feed and that it did what it was supposed to, but you keep mentioning it as if there is something wrong about it. What do you think is wrong with it?

As for crossing center, that doesn't happen because the wu-sau is already offset and comes to the center to remove the obstruction.

There is no entangling because this is a clearing action while the other hand is recycled.

For the same reason it is also not vulnerable to traps since both arms aren't extended together as in the TWC version of this drill.

 

[LFJ]

As I said a fight can force it to happen as they are dynamic, but in my training it's to be avoided via proper footwork and the like.

If your wu-sau is not already in position you will have to first circle it to the outside of the guy's arm, or step to move your whole body around.

Both indirect and inefficient. Better to have a wu already ready to go.

 

[ShortBridge]

How do you position your wu hand?

I'm not totally sure that I understand the question, if it's nuanced, but if it's not, then - on center.

 

[Juany118]

I am phrasing it as questions so that you can feel your way to an answer without embarrassment. To phrase it in a different way, don't look at the direction the hand is pointing, that is irrelevant in this drill. Instead look at the direction of the elbow and hip drive. This is a major part of what the drill is training.

first it is never embarrassing to learn something new or find out we missed something. That said I know those are also important to the drill, but elbow direction (in the SLT thread I refer to that using the term "forwarding energy") and hip drive while an important part indeed are just a part. I think the following video with WSL himself, with PB, illustrates what I am getting at.

First, yes the wu starts on the other side of the centerline BUT when it engages and laps it is on the centerline. Why? Because the incoming strike should be on the centerline. A good example of what can happen if you engage while across the centerline is early in this video, also with WSL, where during chi sau he pins DP's left arm under the right. I apologize if I wasn't clear before. When I said "almost straight from the shoulder" I meant just that, the point of engagement, not just the start point, was also across the centerline.

Second in the first video you posted the arm is being basically thrusted at the student in the upright position, basically striking with the forearm head on, where as, WSL makes it clear that you should be "following through" so to speak so the arm, albeit briefly, rides/slides up the opposing bong vs striking it head on. To really see both of these requires playing the videos at the slowest speed available.

He is also instructing a beginner in terms of what do so much slower, more breaks and less fluid than between two experienced practitioners. I posted because I thought it was a good teaching clip, not because it is the best example of the drill that is available. It is useful in that it is slow and it breaks down what is being shown quite well

This goes to the point I made previously about context. We don't know the context and without that we can't even be sure what is being addressed in the first video.

 

[ShortBridge]

...
This goes to the point I made previously about context. We don't know the context and without that we can't even be sure what is being addressed in the first video.

This is a profound truth and something that we could all remember when debating/critiquing/criticizing any video.

I was running a drill last night that seemingly violated some of our core training principles, but I was doing so because I was trying to get my students moving a particular way and develop some coordination between their hands and their feet. Posted on YouTube, it would be lambasted for being unrealistic and generally "not good", but no one except me knows what I was trying to achieve with that particular drill on this particular night...maybe my students do now...hopefully.

 

[geezer]

I'm not totally sure that I understand the question, if it's nuanced, but if it's not, then - on center.

I do not believe that is so In WSL-VT. As LFJ mentioned above, in that system, the wu is held a bit off-center and comes to center to meet and remove the incoming punch. This is felt to be more efficient and reliable than having the wu exactly on center and not knowing which side (palm or back of hand) that the attack will enter on. I'm sure LFJ can clarify.

In my YM-VT the wu is held on center for reasons I can clearly explain later when I have a bit more time.

 

[wckf92]

Yes, wu is slightly off center.
2nd form ideas being trained...etc.
Thx for the responses thus far

 

[ShortBridge]

Yes, wu is slightly off center.
2nd form ideas being trained...etc.
Thx for the responses thus far

I may just be using slightly different language to describe the same thing.

I think that the concept of center in Si Lim Tao is very restrictive and (perhaps) to your point, it opens up a bit in Chum Kiu and further still as you continue on through the system.

 

[wckf92]

I may just be using slightly different language to describe the same thing.

I think that the concept of center in Si Lim Tao is very restrictive and (perhaps) to your point, it opens up a bit in Chum Kiu and further still as you continue on through the system.

Perhaps. Hard to say brother...er...cousin hahaha (we are both from same lineage).