Good arts for getting to your gun

[Gerry Seymour]

So let's say I use wrestling moves to pin an attacker down. What then? As soon as I let go, he's free to try and punch or stab me again.

That's an argument for possibility. If you take that view, you should kill or at least disable (permanently) everyone who attacks you, because there's always a chance they'll come after you later.

The reality is that it's situational. Sometimes you have enough control to let them up, or you just make the choice that it's probably safe to do so. Sometimes you don't think that's safe, and can hold them until someone helps you (cops, bouncer, etc.). Sometimes you might need to choke them out or break something to make it safe to disengage. Sometimes you don't get the opportunity to make a choice, and you just do the best you can to get out of the situation.

 

[CB Jones]

For me I just don’t like the idea of drawing while physically engaged unless there is absolutely no other choice. My first strategy would be to fight until I can disengage and then draw from outside the attackers arm reach.

1st..... you have to be able to justify lethal force because soon as it comes out you have to be shooting....because you are engaged wrestling with them and you can’t risk the assailant trying to wrestle the gun away from you.

2nd....drawing a concealed weapon under stress can be difficult by itself....doing so while actively engaged wrestling with an attacker will make it exponentially harder and increases the risk of AD, losing the weapon, or a weak grip of the weapon making it harder to retain.

3rd....The drawing of the weapon puts the weapon in its hardest position it retain and creates the risk of losing retention or the muzzle being turned into you. Also, malfunctions can be caused while wrestling for the gun rendering the gun useless to you.

And last...when you draw a gun while actively engaged wrestling with an attacker you lose all other options. Your focus has to be solely on retention and use of the gun due to this all other actions, techniques, fighting strategies, etc...are over....you are now in a shooting situation.

 

[drop bear]

If the weapon is a gun, it's safer to have it in the holster, IMO, when it's not clear (well away from them). If you can't create the space/time to draw and deploy with reasonable expectation of getting it on target without interference, you are safer not drawing it. If he goes for it in the holster (assuming a decent holster), he becomes easier to deal with (he's focused on a single target) and retention is easier than if it's out of the holster.

If you could take him in a fist fight. You never needed the gun though.

 

[hoshin1600]

as i think about this topic i am under the impression we are all holding different scenarios in our heads.

 

[hoshin1600]

If you could take him in a fist fight. You never needed the gun though.

yeah see that is what i was saying ,, we all have a different scenario in our heads.
i am picturing an assailant walking into a store to rob it pulling a gun and his accomplice holding a bag forcing everyone to put their belongings in the bag and forcing some to lay down on the ground.

there is no fist fight. maybe i could take him in a fist fight but not with a gun pointed at my head.
if he doesnt have a gun or a knife or any other weapon , then he really doesnt pose a lethal threat and you have no reason to draw a firearm.

 

[drop bear]

Using MMA strategies that have a finite ending and a win/ lose result is in my opinion the wrong thing to do. Real life violent interactions are not a finite game it is an infinite one. BJJ tactics work really well when used at the appropriate time. Nothing wrong with BJJ skills. There is a difference between strategy and tactics or skills and the when and how to apply them.
The number one goal for a civilian in a violent encounter is the get out of the danger zone. That is it period. Unless there are other people you are trying to protect and that is a different conversation really.
I repeatedly see people trying to apply a finite game strategy like MMA to the street. If you account for all the variables and follow each of those to their respective conclusion it becomes obvious that using the "win the fight" mentality will fail more often than not.
For those interested, Google "game theory the prisoners dilemma " and you will see how to logically calculate out the best strategy.
The longer you are in the danger zone and in contact with the assailant the greater your chances of being injured or killed. For those that want to wrestle with a gun or knife wielding assailant be my guest, ,it won't be my first choice. And as Buka pointed out LEO have a completely different end goal then civilian you really cannot use one to validate the other.

Can you show me your method working?

BJJ actually has footage of police officers making their system work in real time.

Personally I probably wouldn't have said a rear naked wasn't the best way to go. But actually video says different.

Police footage is about the only real time footage of people fighting with guns. So if you are going to work on the theory that it is not really the same you have to replace it with something better.

Not with a bunch of empty theory.

 

[drop bear]

yeah see that is what i was saying ,, we all have a different scenario in our heads.
i am picturing an assailant walking into a store to rob it pulling a gun and his accomplice holding a bag forcing everyone to put their belongings in the bag and forcing some to lay down on the ground.

there is no fist fight. maybe i could take him in a fist fight but not with a gun pointed at my head.
if he doesnt have a gun or a knife or any other weapon , then he really doesnt pose a lethal threat and you have no reason to draw a firearm.

There is this one on a bus where this girl cop pulls a gun and he jumps her. They get in to a wrestle another cop runs in and shoots the guy.

So there may be circumstances where you have to fight your gun off someone. Or even use pieces of that idea so you are not exposing your gun in a fight.

 

[drop bear]

For me I just don’t like the idea of drawing while physically engaged unless there is absolutely no other choice. My first strategy would be to fight until I can disengage and then draw from outside the attackers arm reach.

1st..... you have to be able to justify lethal force because soon as it comes out you have to be shooting....because you are engaged wrestling with them and you can’t risk the assailant trying to wrestle the gun away from you.

2nd....drawing a concealed weapon under stress can be difficult by itself....doing so while actively engaged wrestling with an attacker will make it exponentially harder and increases the risk of AD, losing the weapon, or a weak grip of the weapon making it harder to retain.

3rd....The drawing of the weapon puts the weapon in its hardest position it retain and creates the risk of losing retention or the muzzle being turned into you. Also, malfunctions can be caused while wrestling for the gun rendering the gun useless to you.

And last...when you draw a gun while actively engaged wrestling with an attacker you lose all other options. Your focus has to be solely on retention and use of the gun due to this all other actions, techniques, fighting strategies, etc...are over....you are now in a shooting situation.

Yeah. But at what point do you come to the conclusion that it is time to pull the gun out while engaged?

 

[CB Jones]

Yeah. But at what point do you come to the conclusion that it is time to pull the gun out while engaged?

Once you realize you are over matched and you can not disengage.

 

[drop bear]

I think there's too many pronouns in here. Who is trying to stay engaged? Who is creating space and who is boned? Who isn't letting go?

OK. If I know you have a weapon and I have hold of you. I am not going to let you go.

You will not get clear to draw that gun. You can take an eye out, break limbs, whatever. Because as soon as you get clear. I am dead.

And I don't want to be dead.

 

[drop bear]

Once you realize you are over matched and you can not disengage.

Is that too late?

 

[CB Jones]

OK. If I know you have a weapon and I have hold of you. I am not going to let you go.

You will not get clear to draw that gun. You can take an eye out, break limbs, whatever. Because as soon as you get clear. I am dead.

And I don't want to be dead.

I agree if the other person has a gun....you need to disarm him before you can disengage.

 

[drop bear]

And with all of these concepts you will absolutely need to take these ideas into the lab and see what you can get away with and what you can't.

There is no shortage of fake guns out there that you can't actually try it.

 

[hoshin1600]

Can you show me your method working?

BJJ actually has footage of police officers making their system work in real time.

Personally I probably wouldn't have said a rear naked was the best way to go. But actually video says different.

Police footage is about the only real time footage of people fighting with guns. So if you are going to work on the theory that it is not really the same you have to replace it with something better.

Not with a bunch of empty theory.

your more stubborn than my wife..

1. footage of police is not what i thought we were talking about, in fact the question was asked , if were were discussing LEO or civilian as they are not the same and it does make a big difference.
2. police footage IS NOT THE ONLY FOOTAGE out there of gun violence,, Youtube "Active Self Protection" and you will find literally thousands of videos of gun violence.
3. show you my method working??? again go to Active Self Protection if you need to see the "run away principal" in action...i kinda thought it was universally understood since we were all like 7 years old.

 

[CB Jones]

Is that too late?

Who knows? Nothing is guaranteed.

But I do know it is not easy to draw a concealed weapon while wrestling with someone else and a lot can go wrong.. Its why we train getting back to our feet and disengaging before drawing if possible

 

[drop bear]

I agree if the other person has a gun....you need to disarm him before you can disengage.

I wouldn't think so. You just need to isolate his ability to shoot you and free your ability to shoot him.

A lot of this conversation is going to work in concepts and set ups. I think if you approached it in a concept way. You would wind up with a better method.

 

[drop bear]

I agree if the other person has a gun....you need to disarm him before you can disengage.

I wouldn't think so. You just need to isolate his ability to shoot you and free your ability to shoot him.

A lot of this conversation is going to work in concepts and set ups. I think if you approached it in a concept way. You would wind up with a better method.

 

[hoshin1600]

If I know you have a weapon and I have hold of you. I am not going to let you go.

exactly how did you get a hold of him without already being shot? were you two hugging when you felt a gun in his pocket and knew he wasnt just happy. to see you..????
in most cases he would have already had the gun out and using it for dominance, he would have kept his distance because he isnt stupid enough to just let you take it away.

 

[drop bear]

Who knows? Nothing is guaranteed.

But I do know it is not easy to draw a concealed weapon while wrestling with someone else and a lot can go wrong.. Its why we train getting back to our feet and disengaging before drawing if possible

I have pulled bats, radios and torches out on guys while wrestling. Wrestled handcuffs on guys. Why is a gun so difficult?

 

[drop bear]

exactly how did you get a hold of him without already being shot? were you two hugging when you felt a gun in his pocket and knew he wasnt happy...????
in most cases he would have already had the gun out and using it for dominance, he would have kept his distance because he isnt stupid enough to just let you take it away.

The point of the thread.