Good arts for getting to your gun

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by skribs, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Oh you are doing industry training..

    Yeah that explains it.

    And why so many cops do BJJ.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    If drawing a gun while wrestling wasn't highly dangerous, then I'd agree with your point. But why start out by making it more dangerous for everyone (yourself included), just in case it gets dangerous for you later?
     
  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    There are going to be positions where it is safe to draw and positions where it is unsafe. And they would be pretty easily worked out and broken down.

    Of course nobody has really bothered to work that out which is why we have the systems we have. Stand up get clear and then think about the gun you had on you the whole time.

    Grappling is inherently about creating and denying access.
     
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Early in this thread, discussion wasn't entirely about "stand up and get clear" - it was about building time and space to draw. I think that's exactly what you're talking about.
     
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  5. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Oh. Street/sport.

    Yep gun is so different only gun people would know how to wrestle with one.
     
  6. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    I disagree.

    Our firearms, officer survival, and defensive tactics instructors are full time. Their only jobs are working that stuff out and training. They advocate BJJ and wrestling tactics to gain control of the person or to get back to your feet and separate giving you the distance needed to draw. Drawing while still engaged and without space is a very risky idea.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
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  7. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Sorry I just don't have faith in industry training. Not for these sorts of subjects.

    Industry training is about being compliant to be able to work. It is not for learning things.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
  8. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

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    Filipino Martial arts(Kali, Escrima, Arnis) places heavy emphasis on weapon retention. We have multiple law enforcement officers that take our classes. Filipino martial arts is becoming more and more popular with law enforcement. The Filipino martial arts seminars I go to are mostly law enforcement or private security in attendance.
     
  9. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    So whose training do you put faith in then?
     
  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    The training people choose to do. From the trainers who are legitimately qualified to teach.

    And with results based on evidence.
     
  11. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    Sometimes, with some people, it just isn't worth asking. :p

     
  12. Charlemagne

    Charlemagne Black Belt

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    This may have been shared already and it might not have. Either way, it's a nice example of how an art can be modified in such a way that it allows for effective weapon retention and deployment.

     
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  13. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    To get away from nit picking (which I do way too much of myself), the best advice I have seen so far is to try to create distance, either by side-stepping, or backing up quickly while you draw a gun. Even those tactics must be trained for.

    But have you talked to your Hapkido instructor? Hapkido has some good knife defenses. I was taught them at the red belt level. Later the Korean Hapkido Association moved them to between 1st and 2nd dan. I don't know if it has been put back in the colored belt level or not.

    Preferably, if you are suddenly attacked by a knife wielder, and want to deploy a gun, you want it out before the attacker gets too close to you. If you can't, those knife defenses may be your only hope.
     
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  14. Charlemagne

    Charlemagne Black Belt

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    Things can be blended as well, which can serve to a provide more in the way of options. Most MA systems do weapons as an afterthought, but some deal with them as a large part of their daily training. This video does a nice job of showing how footwork can be used to get yourself offline and alter your range when someone attacks you with a weapon.

     
  15. Balrog

    Balrog Master of Arts

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    Late comer to the thread, but I'll add this. Most, if not all, firearm instructors teach a two hand grip on the weapon. However, a knife attacker closing with you will require you to use your non-dominant hand to guard, block, push, whatever. One should practice single-hand drawing and firing at close range.
     
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  16. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Does anybody really shoot like they are supposed to though? When you see a lot of defensive shootings the shooter is often pretty mobile.

    You see a lot of guys dodging.
     
  17. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Well it would be pretty simple. You get some plastic guns, some plastic knives and some sparring gear. You then create a situation to defend from and then keep working in that environment untill you have a method that works.

    So it doesn't matter if the instructor is consultant to the king of mars. Can I hold him down and beat him to death before he can get free and shoot me. Can he do this to a quality grappler, a striker, a gun guy.

    If they get out reliably and stand up make space and draw their gun. Then that is a viable method. If they create space draw their gun and manage to not shoot themselves in the foot. That is a viable method.

    If they train live dont get out and routinely eat punches or get shot or stabbed a lot. Their method sucks. It is a fight. Train it by fighting.

    We remove the rubbish, the appeals to authority and the hypothetical. And train the problem in an honest manner.

    Now where do we see this kind of training? Because that is the sort of answers we should be looking for.
     
  18. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

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    This was one of the really cool parts about getting the opportunity to drill these situations with simunition guns. You get the feeling of shooting a real gun and seeing where you hit, with both sides moving.

    In the drill we did, the bad guy approached with a knife attack while your gun was concealed. We parried, blocked the knife attack, got off line, breaking their balance and then shoved them. After the shove, you had plenty of time to draw and step back. When they recovered their balance and started to turn back, it froze the bad guy momentarily. And it was predictable where he was going to be.

    I found that this exercise validated the way I practice shooting at the range. I was easily able to to hit the bad guy where I wanted, one handed or two handed, depending on the distance I achieved during the first bit. (this was done point shooting, no one used or attempted to use the sights... most of the time, the gun was still kept close to the body, as you had to shoot fast)

    I highly recommend that you try out these drills with simunition guns if you ever get the chance. We had two experienced SWAT team leaders teaching us and running the drills. This was the best gun disarming / situational shoot course I have taken. I learned a lot from it. If you can't get simunition guns, use airsoft guns. Its not quite the same... but closer than dummy pistols or water guns or nerf guns...
     
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  19. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    At the range you are playing at you could use rubber band guns.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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